Pretty good story. I always admired Alt.

 

Good article.

 

I saw Alt in person when he was on his speaking tour. He was very compelling to me. To some others, not so much. But I did and continue to believe his philosophy was correct.

 

Good article. The funny/sad part is that the same people/groups mentioned but not named that filed suits are still at it, only now they’re attempting their coup via some legislation.

 

Wow, I didnt know Gary Alt got death threats. That is kind of extreme

 

Remember reading about it at the time, I was angry with him but not to that Point.

 

As long as the Unified are around and ”functional” some level of the deer wars will exist. It was kind of fun back in the day on this site when the deer wars were hot and heavy. I particularly enjoyed JS and his newspaper columns full of ”facts” like the grey and brown subspecies. Whatever happened to him? He just disappeared around 2009. Also are we still prohibited from using his name? Seem to remember he threaten to sue the site for slander because his feelings were getting hurt from a lot of guys slamming him and calling him out on his “facts”.

 

On the topic of the brown vs grey deer, always heard that the grey ones were the original PA deer and the brown ones were the ones from VA or WV wherever they brought deer in from back in the day to help rebuild the population.

Is it just normal color variation among the same species, related to age, or is there something to the separate subspecies?

 

I often wonder how many small bucks were shot and left in the woods back when the antler restrictions took effect.

 

I think it's still going on, shoot first then discover it's not legal. I've heard Clowns talk this way.

 

Alt was right about deer management here in Pa. It’s a shame he got the bum’s rush by a lot of hunters here. The easy thing would have been to do nothing and avoid the scorn.

 

Alt's management plan, and outcome is why we have the bigger body and antler deer we have today.
I do feel that HR was taken too far and continues to be taken on a lot of public ground, especially in some areas of State Forests. I know that back in the beginning some Distract Foresters were told to DMAP some areas weather it was needed or not in the beginning. Don't know if it's still going on or not.
My gripe is there's area of state ground that need the opposite of DMAP's instead some areas should be off limit for antler less harvest. If we can increase the harvest in areas that are over populated with deer, we can also increase the population by utilizing the opposite , and allow no doe hunting in certain areas.
Yes I know The argument is we can't micro manage, don't buy it. If DMAP isn't micro management then what is it?

 

Alt was not perfect, nor is a lot of the info from 20 years ago. However, he was right about a few things-
He knew the genetics was here in Pa, those deer needed to see their second and third birthdays and we are seeing the fruits of that labor now.
The anti doe hunting climate of Pa needed dissolving! No doubt....
The forests of Pa silently thanked him.

The so called "Unifed" people are unhinged over not being able to shoot spikes and frown upon any doe hunting. Never seen a group of old folks that angry over a spike. They were wrong then, and are still to this day.

 

Funny thing about the genetics is that when deer had to be reintroduced in the early 1900s, we pulled in deer from Kentucky, Maine, Michigan, New Hampshire, New Jersey, North Carolina, and Ohio to help out what little deer we had left. I've been reading a lot today. History of the Whitetail

 

AR and HR made things harder during it’s early years but I feel like the quality of bucks in Pa has improved substantially since then. I definitely miss the hunting culture of the pre AR/HR days though.

 

AR and HR made things harder during it’s early years but I feel like the quality of bucks in Pa has improved substantially since then.

Agreed. I've hunted deer since 1970, and the size & quality of bucks is DEFINITELY better now - not even close.

 

Was sad the guy had to wear a bullet poof vest to speak to sportsman. Sad mentality for PA sportsman.

 

Coat color variations seems to be genetics and direct sun exposure.

 

Wow! It's already been 20 years. Speaking only from my experience, the early to mid years where a little tough. The PGC didn't pull back on HR early enough in the northern tier where camp is. That made for some really difficult years around 2008-2013 or something like that. Even in the low deer number years if and when you saw a buck boy oh boy was it worth seeing. However, in the last few years its been the best of both worlds. We have pretty good understory in a lot of place which has allowed the land to support a growing number of deer. The does are getting old and as a result much bigger than in the past. The bucks, well there is just no comparison from the pre-alt days. Right now is the best hunting I've seen in my lifetime both quality of the deer and quantity. I do remember seeing lots of deer pre-alt and they were usually small deer and the bucks were rare at camp. Overall Alt had it right.

 

I shot my biggest archery buck the year antler restrictions went into effect. Not sure if he would have even broke 100 inches back then but at the time he was a monster. Not many guys were shooting bucks that big around me back then and a nice buck was usually a basket rack 8 point .
Almost noticed a change immediately the following year shooting one even bigger that broke 120 . That was the last big buck I shot for several years but all the other ones I ended up shooting were much bigger than the typical bucks I shot before antler restrictions.
Anyhow I am sure Alt deserves a lot of credit for where the herd is at today but there are also other factors. Guys being more selective , less hunters and milder winters to name a few.

 

We are about back to needing another round of HR again in the big woods.

 

It’s coming this yr.

 

Nice article. Thanks for sharing.

 

Thanks for posting the well written article.

 

I hunt 95% from a tree stand, i always search for my brass but often it’s hard to find to the dismay of one of my partners, as he is our camp reloader.

 

That was a good article and Steve hit on the names of all three of the people I credit with making the biggest changes in the future for deer in this Commonwealth.

First to make a major positive change in the future of the Pennsylvania deer herd and hunting was Roger Latham when he brought us an annual antlerless deer season. Even though it cost him his career with the Game Commission and hunters never allowed doe harvests to reach the levels and do the job for the habitat recover that was needed it still turned out to be a keeper in the big picture of future deer management.

Doctor Alt was the second to bring us a major change that was both a keeper and positive step in good deer management principles and practices when he brought the antler restrictions that kept more of the younger bucks alive through the end of the deer season. That step provided enough bucks in the population to get the does bred during the correct estrus cycle. He also brought us an earlier doe season to help with that breeding cycle to put some of the doe harvest into a period before the rut so bucks weren't wasting their time chasing and breeding as many of the does that were going to be part of the annual harvest. That was another keeper and positive step in deer management.

The third person Steve mentioned in his article, and one that I don't think gets nearly as much recognition as he deserves, was retired Land Management Officer John Dzemyan. John was a Game Warden and then a Land Manager but he was also very active in showing people how to see the real effects of carrying too many deer on your landscape. John was instrumental in the construction of hundreds of small fenced areas on a wide range of different habitats. Those fences for one one purpose...to show the difference deer made outside the fence verse what would grow inside the fence. John then held hundreds of public tour to show hunters and others just how the deer were actually limiting their own food supplies by eating off everything within their reach, even in areas where hunters didn't believe any deer existed. Those fences convinced a lot of hunters looking for which side of the deer wars they wanted to take their stand that they belonged on the side supporting good doe harvests.

Without John's efforts I am not sure we would have ever been able to progress as far forward in sound deer management as we have.

I suspect there will be others to make major progressive steps in the future but as as right now those three men have undoubtedly made the biggest steps in our history toward moving deer management and deer hunting forward into a brighter future.

Am glad to see Steve giving them the recognition they deserve.

Dick Bodenhorn

 

That was a good article and Steve hit on the names of all three of the people I credit with making the biggest changes in the future for deer in this Commonwealth.

First to make a major positive change in the future of the Pennsylvania deer herd and hunting was Roger Latham when he brought us an annual antlerless deer season. Even though it cost him his career with the Game Commission and hunters never allowed doe harvests to reach the levels and do the job for the habitat recover that was needed it still turned out to be a keeper in the big picture of future deer management.

Doctor Alt was the second to bring us a major change that was both a keeper and positive step in good deer management principles and practices when he brought the antler restrictions that kept more of the younger bucks alive through the end of the deer season. That step provided enough bucks in the population to get the does bred during the correct estrus cycle. He also brought us an earlier doe season to help with that breeding cycle to put some of the doe harvest into a period before the rut so bucks weren't wasting their time chasing and breeding as many of the does that were going to be part of the annual harvest. That was another keeper and positive step in deer management.

The third person Steve mentioned in his article, and one that I don't think gets nearly as much recognition as he deserves, was retired Land Management Officer John Dzemyan. John was a Game Warden and then a Land Manager but he was also very active in showing people how to see the real effects of carrying too many deer on your landscape. John was instrumental in the construction of hundreds of small fenced areas on a wide range of different habitats. Those fences for one one purpose...to show the difference deer made outside the fence verse what would grow inside the fence. John then held hundreds of public tour to show hunters and others just how the deer were actually limiting their own food supplies by eating off everything within their reach, even in areas where hunters didn't believe any deer existed. Those fences convinced a lot of hunters looking for which side of the deer wars they wanted to take their stand that they belonged on the side supporting good doe harvests.

Without John's efforts I am not sure we would have ever been able to progress as far forward in sound deer management as we have.

I suspect there will be others to make major progressive steps in the future but as as right now those three men have undoubtedly made the biggest steps in our history toward moving deer management and deer hunting forward into a brighter future.

Am glad to see Steve giving them the recognition they deserve.

Dick Bodenhorn

Excellent post. It's also very informative as two of the three people that you credit with making very real and positive changes to the future of deer management in PA lost their jobs because of this. Speaks volumes as to the "average deer hunter in PA" IMO.

 

Double post

 

I've run into a few old fenced study areas. Pretty amazing the difference outside the fences even though some deer get in.

 

I very much enjoy how deer hunting has changed in PA as far as age class of bucks is concerned. For the first time in my life I had a chance at an honest 160" class buck in archery season 2022 on my own property. Had him at 40 and 46 yards, didn't take the shot. I've turned down more 8 points in the last 10 years than I could have imagined growing up in the 90's.
That being said, I think the mindset of growing trophy class deer(QDMA) is directly responsible for the increase in posted property we see. I know there is more to Alt's plan than just bigger bucks, but for the average hunter that is really the product of the plan they are focused on.

 

Let them go, let them grow. The people who hate doe hunting and want to return to the days of shooting spikes will never fully understand that. But hey, Pennsyltucky is the land that a "spike will always be a spike".

 

I almost never hear anyone complain about AR's anymore.

Still hear lots of complaining about "killing off all the deer" though. From guys here in 1A no less.🤦

 

The only problem I had with AR is when they had the 4 on one side rule. It’s almost impossible to see brow tines when a deer is moving in and out of brush. That rule cost me a couple of nice Bucks. One day I had three nice bucks that I passed on because I couldn’t see brow tines. When the switched to three on top that problem was solved.