Alright, finally a late season thread!

...as I said in the other thread.... if only 2500 grouse were harvested during the regular season that runs for several weeks in more favorable weather, it's hard to believe that any late season harvest on top of that would have a meaningful impact on the statewide grouse population.

 

If so few grouse are harvested now mabee a year off would help the population. Close it all down for a year let the population try and rebound.. 2500 is a pathetic number compered to just 20 years ago.

 

If so few grouse are being harvested, why do we need year off?

 

Where are the summer counts, those have to be high to have a season in their framework right?

 

Our biologists have finally admitted the summer brood counts are meaningless, just like spring drumming counts. Interesting data, but not relevant to fall flush counts.

Plus brood sightings run thru August, they cant change season start and end dates once they seasons are approved in April. So, they need to go by the previous years brood counts, or admit they were wrong and take them out of the equation. Or just the biologists can admit, they will come up with anything to keep from bring back the late season.

 

Around here on the farm and neighboring farms there are no grouse. They are basically gone. Grouse numbers here used to be fantastic. Now you can walk my farm, the neighbors 400 acres(all posted), the other neighbors 150 acres(all posted) and I'll bet you never flush a Grouse. So by my observations here in my little world there are no Grouse to kill. So why would I try and kill the last few around here if you can even find them. Used to flush 5-10 birds every trip around my farm, no more.

 

Yeah, but if the habitat is aging out it makes sense they are gone. What's the regen cycle on the property? If not specifically managed for grouse, most 100-500 acre properties will only hold grouse a couple or few decades per century following harvests.

It seems when we had very low levels of predation in the eras of DDT +fur boom, some grouse existed in bad habitat, but those days are not coming back, nor were they natural or replicable.

 

Upon looking at the data from the game take surveys It certainly appears that both grouse hunters and grouse are still in a state of rather significant decline.

I am going to post the numbers from 1993 - 2013 in ten year periods then every year since 2000 through 2023 (the last year for which we have complete data) just to show that the decline continues.

Representation........1993.........2003.......2013........2020.....2021.....2022.....2023
# hunters....242,398.....134,115......66,113.....21,177......18,061.......16,030......12,958
# hunt days.....1,246,856....700,729...307,317....96,542...85,500...60,542..54,314
# taken........272,690......106,587......40,308.....8782......6184.......4314.........2503
Harv./100 days.....21.9.......15.2.......13.12........9.06........7.23..........7.13............4.61

Even though all of the historic data is interesting, at least to some, probably the most telling numbers are harvests per 100 hunter days. Those numbers indicate that grouse populations have probably been in a steady decline for a long time. Un doubted a large part of that decline is habitat related. We have to remember a few things about the declining habitat though. First of all grouse don't do well at all where the growth of cities, towns and pavement keep expanding. Then there is also the habitat decline from more old farmsteads growing into mature timber instead of the grouse habitat they once provided coupled with the decline in timber values that control timber cutting and the early successional habitat grouse need.

But, regardless of what the various causes for grouse decline have been or continue to be, it appears rather obvious that grouse populations, as reflected by the declining hunter harvests per days hunted show, are not rebounding and thus deserve caution in hunting seasons, hunter days and perhaps even bag limits. perhaps some of the decline is from hunters opting to hunt them but not shoot them can account for some of the decline in hunter success per day hunted. But, how much can we trust in that being a major factor in the decline in hunter success rates? Is that possibility enough to risk the possibility of over shooting the future of the species with longer seasons?

Dick Bodenhorn

 

The 2,500 killed by hunters are a drop in the bucket... Grouse in PA generally die of predation. Pretty stark difference in bird numbers between September and January. Once the leaves come down, grouse are nature’s pop tart. This is not a flaw but by nature's design. They are prey species. I found half a dozen grouse kills last year. The hawks & owls are adept at picking them off. I see multiple hawks every time I'm at a local grouse project. That does not bother me. I don't lose a minute of sleep over it. On the contrary, it is a sign that there is prey (grouse) around. Only 2 out of 100 grouse chicks make it to year 3. But in the right conditions, they have large broods, and that helps balance things out. Habitat is the only answer. And not the creation of habitat in the middle of farm country or suburbia, but within 2-6 miles of existing populations...

 

The 2,500 killed by hunters are a drop in the bucket... Grouse in PA generally die of predation.

Exactly. Which helps make the case for grouse hunting being compensatory, something no one in PA seems to be talking about.

 

CMP, so de-chase her. I get you're a first time handler but the longer you wait to get it accomplished the harder it is. If you really want a good hunting dog, don't waste this time. Is she e-collar conditioned? Have you taught her 'Hup? (Basically the flushing dog version of whoa- used for after the flush)

 

Good article in September 2025 Game News pages 21 - 25

 

I don't subscribe but I guess I should. What was the gist of the article?

 

We're in a short rain delay, give us a brief over view of the article

 

The basic gist was how the grouse cooperators are needed. And how the aging demographics are affecting input. Late season closing, West Nile are touched on as well.

 

Thanks. I just subscribed.

 

Well I suppose to assist those charged with the welfare of grouse with boots and noses on the ground in the thick.

 

The two charged with monitoring grouse are desk biologists, they are not putting their boots on the ground and into grouse covers, the last biologist that had a full understanding of grouse was Bill Palmer, and the BOC pushed him out the door.

If every grouse hunter reported every minute and every grouse flushed, nothing would change. With my poor hearing, I'd make statistics worse than they already are.

 

so.... I'll take that as a maybe?

FYI the article did mention diminished hearing....

 

Here is a 5 year study the GC could do to determine hunting on late season grouse.

Open the full late season back up on all lands except game lands. If the GLs show improved flush rates and all other lands show decreased flush rates, close down the late season again. If not, fully open it back up for all lands in Pa.

 

Here is a 5 year study the GC could do to determine hunting on late season grouse.

Open the full late season back up on all lands except game lands. If the GLs show improved flush rates and all other lands show decreased flush rates, close down the late season again. If not, fully open it back up for all lands in Pa.

Read the article in this month's Game News.

Take special note to how the Penna. northern tier flushing rata use to align with the same data from southern New York and how Pennsylvania is now pulling further ahead of New York's grouse numbers.

The difference in the more recent year's flushing rates and Pennsylvania's grouse population faster and higher recovery rate might well be the result of Pennsylvania closed their late grouse seasons while New York didn't.

Dick Bodenhorn

 

I typically enjoy your posts and appreciate the perspective you bring, but I have come to realize there seems to be no limit to how far you will go to apologize for every move the PGC makes or doesn't.

Or maybe it is because I have an open minded. Perhaps it is because I spend countless hours reviewing information and data instead of just listening to hunter opinions. Perhaps it has to do with the fact I know darn good and well that the Game Commission is really very much interested in all wildlife species and doing the best they can with the resources available to care for all of the various wildlife species they are charged with managing.

The difference "might well be the result of Pennsylvania closed their late grouse seasons while New York didn't" is complete conjecture and you know it. So now it's not about WNV or habitat, we're back to over-harvest due to too much hunting being the problem. Unfortunately for that argument, it's been well covered that grouse hunting pressure is a far cry from what it ever was and that grouse hunting is compensatory. Oh, there's that word again that no one will mention or discuss in PA.

You, nor anyone else, can prove that late season grouse harvests are entirely compensatory and don't have a negative effect on the number of grouse alive to carry on the next spring nesting season. It appears that opinion is being called into question with mounting evidence to the contrary of the late season grouse harvests being entirely compensatory.

It is a matter that will require more study and evaluation to determine which opinion is correct. Right now, there is enough evidence mounting to bring the subject to the front burner for closer monitoring.

Go read the article in Game News.

Dick Bodenhorn

 

You, nor anyone else, can prove that late season grouse harvests are entirely compensatory and don't have a negative effect on the number of grouse alive to carry on the next spring nesting season. It appears that opinion is being called into question with mounting evidence to the contrary of the late season grouse harvests being entirely compensatory.

What mounting evidence? Compensatory hunting has been well established and accepted by many other states and NGOs. But your open mind obviously won't consider it until it becomes the position of the PGC.

The trouble with data is often in the lens through which it is analyzed. Sometimes you need to use a little common sense. Even my elementary school aged kids can understand that if there are a lot less hunters now than years ago when there were a lot more grouse, too much hunting isn't a good explanation for the population decline. In fact, it might well be just the opposite case where there are less hunters because there are less grouse.

But no matter whether it was the chicken or the egg that came first, you just can't seem to handle any position, objective or subjective, that isn't in lock step with the PGC's current position.

 

Pa grouse hunting is dead....DEAD. Within the next 5 years the December season will be history with the addition of Sunday hunting, we cant put more pressure on the birds with the increase of hunting days.. I hope all the Aholes that voted to close the late season are happy now with their decision, I for one am glad its never coming back. The GC knows how gullible everyone is, they just stock more box chickens every year and have increased those winter stockings knowing it will keep 95% of the bird hunters happy. I'm glad I have my geezer license and never have to give any more money to the GC.

My goal now is to find a cabin or land in Michigan, come out October 1 and return to Pa November 15 when their dee season starts. Get in a few hunts with friends Thanksgiving week and call it a season. No WNV in Michigan and I'll get far more hunting than I could ever get in Pa.

 

At our age that’s as good as it gets right now. I’ll be a little further west in Minnesota. Have a few good friends there that I sold pups to in the past that guide me to good areas.

 

Minnesota has great grouse hunting, probably the best state right now. But after 4 weeks of trials, i dont feel like driving 12 hours west to hunt. IMO, the best grouse hunting is in November; most hunters are gone and the grouse have been pushed out of the aspen into the scrub oak where they are easier to hunt. Plus having a place in michigan, i can come out in July to train dogs and again later on august to work with pros. And their season is open until january 1.

 

If hunting the late season with very llimited participation, will destroy the grouse population, then what happened to all the wild pheasants in the WPRAs with no hunting?

 

Minnesota just closed part of the state for sharptails due to low numbers. It happens. All states will do it if they feel it necessary .

 

Be careful what you wish for, 2/3 of Pa could easily be closed to grouse hunting based on reported flush rates. When that happens no one will care anymore.

 

Not wishing just making a point that states you put on a pedestal aren’t much different than PA. When a problem arises they deal with.

 

I don't really have an opinion on the late season closure. Whether it is open or closed, the only response to the grouse decline that is likely to make a difference is habitat improvement. That is what I care about.

 

Habitat is the only answer.

Closure will only hurt. You’ll lose a generation of grouse hunters, and no one will care enough to advocate for them, and the PGC will tell us all to be grateful for dumb box chickens.

I am bullish for the future of PA grouse. DCNR is salvage cutting 1,600 acres in my area this year. Things are markedly better than when I moved here & will improve.

 

Closure will only hurt. You’ll lose a generation of grouse hunters, and no one will care enough to advocate for them, and the PGC will tell us all to be grateful for dumb box chickens.

100% right.

Finally got time to read the Game News article and couldn't help but notice a few things:

1) "...However, if a grouse has already survived [the early season] into January, it only has to survive a few more months to breed."

I would need to see some good hard data to be convinced of that. This must be the big rejoinder to compensatory harvest. Just survive a few more months, eh? Those happen to be the hardest months to survive in the wild, and the couple of extra weeks of grouse season don't shorten "a few months" by much. Sounds like wishful thinking to me that a bird that isn't shot by Christmas has a much higher chance of making it to spring.

2) The main article highlights the fact that the rate of old timers getting out of grouse hunting outpaces new hunters and how there are many less hunters today than in years gone by, and also points out that experienced cooperators typically average less than 2 birds harvested per year. As I've said before, with so few hunters and birds being harvested in recent times, the math just doesn't work for the idea that late season hunting has a significant impact on the grouse population beyond natural factors.

3) The comparison to NY is more conjecture and smacks of cherry picking data, if there is much data. Comparing flush rates from two different states without a word about comparing quality of habitat is either very naive or intellectually dishonest.

Bottom line, as most of us know, ample food and cover is key to any wildlife species being able to weather disease, predation, and hunting pressure. If PGC doesn't figure out a way to turn around the decline in grouse hunter numbers, that's just as bad for the future of grouse numbers as anything else discussed. PGC has gone to great lengths to recruit new hunters in many other areas: expanded big game seasons, Sunday hunting, etc. All of this is aimed at providing more opportunity to entice new hunters. Yet with grouse, the answer seems to be reducing opportunity and then fish for reasoning that loosely supports the reduction, if at all. How that will effectively lead to more grouse hunters and active cooperators in the future is anyone's guess.

 

Fresh owl kill today. If predators can find grouse this easily in August, imagine how easily the can find them January thru April. Yet we have stupid biologists and gullible followers that think they'll all survive to breed in late April.

 

No biologist expects all of the grouse still alive at Christmas time, the end of the grouse season, to be alive at spring nesting time. But any logical thinking person would expect some of those still alive on Christmas day to survive until spring. Certainly, more of them will be alive than if both hunters and predators were still killing them after Christmas.

As for a hawk, owl or some other predator catching a grouse this time of year, even in perfect habitat, it is simply a fact that grouse will spend a fair amount of time dusting on dirt roads this time of year. They are not very well hidden and pretty easy for a predator to zero in on while doing that. That is just part of how nature has always worked in the past and will continue to work in the future.

Dick Bodenhorn

 

snow roost will save them

 

The reality is that the grouse is nature's pop-tart. (Much like rabbits.) 50% of poults don't make it to autumn. Only 2 of 100 chicks will make it to year 3. Boosting young forest habitat = more poults. There's no other way to make a difference.

The reason there are so few grouse in SE and SW PA is because of habitat fragmentation, not black magic, predation, WNV, or "long" seasons. Look at where we have grouse in PA. It's where there is contiguous forest habitat on public land. The amount of Early Successional Habitat on private land is miniscule. SE and SW PA might never come back from that.

I don't get too worked up over the presence of hawks & owls. I drove through a grouse project a couple days ago, and saw half a dozen hawks. Much like the fat man at the Chinese buffet, they're there b/c there's something to eat. The grouse are there b/c of young forest habitat. It's as it's designed to be.