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Having confidence in your firearm and cartridge is a huge advantage.
She is deadly!
She is deadly. She has made 21 consecutive kills with the last 21 shots. No misses. When she pulls the trigger, I have 100% confidence that the deer is going down. Lots of deer shot at 150 + yards too. You know what her secret is? She doesn’t care if she gets anything. You or me…..we want to be successful! I get far more wound up in the blind or stand than she does when it’s time for her to shoot. And somehow, she has a knack for having big bucks wander by. We’ll go out at 4:00 pm mid season and she’ll have a buck dead within an hour. Crazy.
 
I'm currently having a debate with someone about the smallest ethical deer caliber. My personal opinion is the .243. I know many say the .223 will kill deer,and it will. I just pick the .243. There's really no point in this post other than to garner opinions and/or first person experience. Thanks for looking
.50 BMG
 
When the 44 grain Hammer sheds its petals, what is the weight of the shank. And how much momentum would that carry for deep penetration?
I know your reply isn’t for me but I was asking about his opinion on the bullet.
The hammer hunter retains 60-70% weight. I am pushing them at slightly over 3700 fps so whatever is left of the 44 grains should easily pass through.
 
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This is my opinion, not fact, but opinion. I feel any .22 thru .243/6mm calibers are too small to reliably kill deer and black bear. I know that it can be done, I have 9 or 10 deer on a 243_Win. I shot them on the shoulder or behind the shoulder about a 1/3 of the way up. The deer ran about 75-125 yards, except one doe. She ran 325ish yards. At the time I was using a 85gr Barnes X bullet. It never opened up, it went thru the deer like a pencil. When I gutted it, I could see a .24 cal hole thru the lungs. It was also a good thing because I had snow on the ground. The blood trail was next to nonexistent. I checked as I was on my knees for 300+/- yards. Thick mountain laurel, in case you wanted to ask. I tried Hornady,Speer, Sierra and Nosler partitions to go along with a 85gr Barnes X bullet. Oh, it was before the copper bullets that you have now, early 1990s.

My friend, who has a Rem m788 in 243 Win, disagrees with me. He has a whole pile of deer and 40+ years of hunting. He uses 100gr "Wal Mart special" factory load and the furthest the deer ran is around 5 or 6 feet.

Now I use mostly cast boolits on deer and black bear. I have 3 different jacketed loads, 270 Win with 140gr Hornady SST, 30 Herrett with a 130gr Speer HP and a 8x57 with a 170gr Speer SP. I am planning on taking the Herrett and the 8 Mausers after I blood the 500 Linebaugh with 450gr LFN GC.


I'd have zero issues with using a 44gr Hammer. I mentioned 50-55gr because that is what I have.
I'll be using light for caliber Hammer bullets in 444 this year.
I have a 280gr WFN GC in my 444 Marlin. 1937fps with Reloder 7 is what they clock at. It is great for deer.
 
The 22 mag also makes a mess of lungs from 50 to 150yds. and we never lost one when doing crop damage in the 80's.
If it would not work why would Maine and some southern states have it as a legal caliber for deer.
They are not for every hunter only the disciplined ones.
That 40 grain did the most damage (2x so far) I have seen in deer shot with calibers up to the 45-70.
I would imagine a double shoulder 45-70 shot would be bad but I don't like throwing meat away or butchering one just to say" I got one".
My favorite caliber for bang flop is the 243 with an 85 grain Sierra BT.
A friend of my dad's who would shoot deer year round said the 22 mag drops them as quick as the 30-06. And he wasn't head shooting
 
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This is my opinion, not fact, but opinion. I feel any .22 thru .243/6mm calibers are too small to reliably kill deer and black bear. I know that it can be done, I have 9 or 10 deer on a 243_Win. I shot them on the shoulder or behind the shoulder about a 1/3 of the way up. The deer ran about 75-125 yards, except one doe. She ran 325ish yards. At the time I was using a 85gr Barnes X bullet. It never opened up, it went thru the deer like a pencil. When I gutted it, I could see a .24 cal hole thru the lungs. It was also a good thing because I had snow on the ground. The blood trail was next to nonexistent. I checked as I was on my knees for 300+/- yards. Thick mountain laurel, in case you wanted to ask. I tried Hornady,Speer, Sierra and Nosler partitions to go along with a 85gr Barnes X bullet. Oh, it was before the copper bullets that you have now, early 1990s.

My friend, who has a Rem m788 in 243 Win, disagrees with me. He has a whole pile of deer and 40+ years of hunting. He uses 100gr "Wal Mart special" factory load and the furthest the deer ran is around 5 or 6 feet.

Now I use mostly cast boolits on deer and black bear. I have 3 different jacketed loads, 270 Win with 140gr Hornady SST, 30 Herrett with a 130gr Speer HP and a 8x57 with a 170gr Speer SP. I am planning on taking the Herrett and the 8 Mausers after I blood the 500 Linebaugh with 450gr LFN GC.




I have a 280gr WFN GC in my 444 Marlin. 1937fps with Reloder 7 is what they clock at. It is great for deer.
I had a Berger bullet that pencil through a deer. I have read that if the open tip is clogged or dinged it can happen with all hollow points. I never used Berger again for hunting.
 
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This is my opinion, not fact, but opinion. I feel any .22 thru .243/6mm calibers are too small to reliably kill deer and black bear. I know that it can be done, I have 9 or 10 deer on a 243_Win. I shot them on the shoulder or behind the shoulder about a 1/3 of the way up. The deer ran about 75-125 yards, except one doe. She ran 325ish yards. At the time I was using a 85gr Barnes X bullet. It never opened up, it went thru the deer like a pencil. When I gutted it, I could see a .24 cal hole thru the lungs. It was also a good thing because I had snow on the ground. The blood trail was next to nonexistent. I checked as I was on my knees for 300+/- yards. Thick mountain laurel, in case you wanted to ask. I tried Hornady,Speer, Sierra and Nosler partitions to go along with a 85gr Barnes X bullet. Oh, it was before the copper bullets that you have now, early 1990s.

My friend, who has a Rem m788 in 243 Win, disagrees with me. He has a whole pile of deer and 40+ years of hunting. He uses 100gr "Wal Mart special" factory load and the furthest the deer ran is around 5 or 6 feet.

Now I use mostly cast boolits on deer and black bear. I have 3 different jacketed loads, 270 Win with 140gr Hornady SST, 30 Herrett with a 130gr Speer HP and a 8x57 with a 170gr Speer SP. I am planning on taking the Herrett and the 8 Mausers after I blood the 500 Linebaugh with 450gr LFN GC.




I have a 280gr WFN GC in my 444 Marlin. 1937fps with Reloder 7 is what they clock at. It is great for deer.
Early X bullets were notorious for inconsistent to no expansion. I have a box of 150gr .30 cal X bullets from 1990ish that zipped through a mule deer without expanding and that was at 3500fps/300 Wby.
This inconsistent expansion with the X is why Barnes made the TSX and TTSX.

If I had to use a .224 cal centerfire for deer, I would use copper bullets. And if semi-autos are ever legalized, I will use a .223 just to satisfy my own urge.

I don't have an issue with anyone who uses cast bullets in any cartridge. For me, personally, I would rather use modern technology in old workhorses to get the performance that I want out of them. I respect what cast bullets are capable of, but it is a 180 degree complete other end of the spectrum that I tend to want from cartridges.
The 200gr Hammer will be over 2600fps and will penetration as well as any hardcast will on a deer. They shoot an honest .4 to .5 group at 100yds from a CVA single shot. I literally can't wait to send one or some through deer this year.
 
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I had a Berger bullet that pencil through a deer. I have read that if the open tip is clogged or dinged it can happen with all hollow points. I never used Berger again for hunting.
Exactly the same thing happened to my wife a few years ago. My son won a 6.5 Creed at a gun raffle, and wanted his mother to hunt with it . Federal 135 grain Bergers. She hit a buck, dead center of the chest, facing her. It ran 150 yards. Never had a drop of blood exit the entrance hole. It bled the last ten yards, out of its nose.

She went back to the .300 WSM the next year.
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Seems odd to have such a strong opinion when you have no experience shooting deer with 22 calibers. I understand that old wives tales and common misconceptions die hard. With the right bullet, you have nothing to worry about. I keep posting a link to a 500+ page thread of info that would blow a lot of people minds, not sure if anyone looks at it.



.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.
I’ve read that thread, the .223 and the 77gr TMK have a cult following over there.


If I ever send one into a deer and recover it, I will let you know!

Hammer bullets have a forum. I'd guess that there are detailed threads about how those 44gr did or didn't perform from a variety of velocities and distances.
I am pretty confident that whatever is left of that shank (25-30gr?) of solid copper that is still going much faster (2x to3x) than any .22lr bullet will be enough to get it to and through at least 2 lungs.
I hunted with Hammers for a few years but have moved most of my loading back over to Hornady bullets though I do keep a few 125 HHT loaded for my 6.5 PRC. My Dad and Brother were the main drivers for the switch back as they were having run offs with the Hammers that they weren’t getting with the Hornady’s.

And it wasn’t bad shots that were the issue, they were double lung shots but the problem was on drives the deer weren’t reacting like they were hit only to topple over later. I shot a buck with the 109 AH at 3300 fps at the muzzle on a drive and it ran 150 yards before dropping even with the damage shown below.

Image


I had a Berger bullet that pencil through a deer. I have read that if the open tip is clogged or dinged it can happen with all hollow points. I never used Berger again for hunting.
I’ve had it happen twice, once with a 175gr OTM out of my 30-06 and once with a 130gr OTM out of a 6.5 Creedmoor. Luckily the 30-06 dropped the deer as it was close to the spine due to the angle but I did have to shoot it a second time 30 minutes later.

The second deer we only found due to a grid search, my Dad was confident that he didn’t miss the deer so we scoured the area that it went and ended up finding it well over 150 yards away with pretty much zero blood trail.
 
I had a Berger bullet that pencil through a deer. I have read that if the open tip is clogged or dinged it can happen with all hollow points. I never used Berger again for hunting.
Early X bullets were notorious for inconsistent to no expansion. I have a box of 150gr .30 cal X bullets from 1990ish that zipped through a mule deer without expanding and that was at 3500fps/300 Wby.
This inconsistent expansion with the X is why Barnes made the TSX and TTSX.

If I had to use a .224 cal centerfire for deer, I would use copper bullets. And if semi-autos are ever legalized, I will use a .223 just to satisfy my own urge.

I don't have an issue with anyone who uses cast bullets in any cartridge. For me, personally, I would rather use modern technology in old workhorses to get the performance that I want out of them. I respect what cast bullets are capable of, but it is a 180 degree complete other end of the spectrum that I tend to want from cartridges.
The 200gr Hammer will be over 2600fps and will penetration as well as any hardcast will on a deer. They shoot an honest .4 to .5 group at 100yds from a CVA single shot. I literally can't wait to send one or some through deer this year.
Yeah, I learned the early X's and no expansion, two or three weeks after the doe incident. I never used expensive bullets again. Mono bullets, Cutting Edge, Bear Claw, Swift and the like. They used to be Nosler BT but they went from 100 bullets to 50 bullets and Hornady jacked their prices up, so I try not to buy the The only jacketed bullets I use are Speer and Hornady SST. Oh, I have factory seconds in 150gr SP, 7mm. I bought them because they were cheap, $13 or $14/box of 100_bullets. I bought 800 bullets.

In case your wondering, "why that cheap SOB"...you are right. I am cheap. My disability check makes me cheap. I got a crate and a half of Lyman #2 for about $125 or $150 at an auction. I have enuff primers to last me a lifetime, but my powder is getting light. Anyway, I shoot about .04cents a primer, .10-.25cents powder and .01-.02cents a cast boolit. It may be more on the powder, tho. So I shoot .31cents a shot. It is much better than over $1 a shot in factory loads or reloaded jacketed loads at .50cents or more.

I would do " custom " bullets, but I don't have the money. I don't even have the money to hunt out of state. Besides, when I use cast boolits, I am using my own boolit .
 
I knew a guy that worked for police forensic labs years ago.He said a deer shot in the heart or lungs will not live longer than 7 seconds.In those 7 seconds some just drop and some took off .
Another view was that if they had just inhaled and had lung full of oxygen they took off.The ones that just exhaled dropped quicker due to lack of oxygen in system.
 
Yeah, I learned the early X's and no expansion, two or three weeks after the doe incident. I never used expensive bullets again. Mono bullets, Cutting Edge, Bear Claw, Swift and the like. They used to be Nosler BT but they went from 100 bullets to 50 bullets and Hornady jacked their prices up, so I try not to buy the The only jacketed bullets I use are Speer and Hornady SST. Oh, I have factory seconds in 150gr SP, 7mm. I bought them because they were cheap, $13 or $14/box of 100_bullets. I bought 800 bullets.

In case your wondering, "why that cheap SOB"...you are right. I am cheap. My disability check makes me cheap. I got a crate and a half of Lyman #2 for about $125 or $150 at an auction. I have enuff primers to last me a lifetime, but my powder is getting light. Anyway, I shoot about .04cents a primer, .10-.25cents powder and .01-.02cents a cast boolit. It may be more on the powder, tho. So I shoot .31cents a shot. It is much better than over $1 a shot in factory loads or reloaded jacketed loads at .50cents or more.

I would do " custom " bullets, but I don't have the money. I don't even have the money to hunt out of state. Besides, when I use cast boolits, I am using my own boolit .
And I've got the money but not the time. I bought Vermont hunting license a couple weeks ago and then realized "what are you doing? You know you can't get away from work. You're the only one there". Then I was mad at myself for spending the money
 
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I’ve read that thread, the .223 and the 77gr TMK have a cult following over there.




I hunted with Hammers for a few years but have moved most of my loading back over to Hornady bullets though I do keep a few 125 HHT loaded for my 6.5 PRC. My Dad and Brother were the main drivers for the switch back as they were having run offs with the Hammers that they weren’t getting with the Hornady’s.

And it wasn’t bad shots that were the issue, they were double lung shots but the problem was on drives the deer weren’t reacting like they were hit only to topple over later. I shot a buck with the 109 AH at 3300 fps at the muzzle on a drive and it ran 150 yards before dropping even with the damage shown below.

View attachment 282367



I’ve had it happen twice, once with a 175gr OTM out of my 30-06 and once with a 130gr OTM out of a 6.5 Creedmoor. Luckily the 30-06 dropped the deer as it was close to the spine due to the angle but I did have to shoot it a second time 30 minutes later.

The second deer we only found due to a grid search, my Dad was confident that he didn’t miss the deer so we scoured the area that it went and ended up finding it well over 150 yards away with pretty much zero blood trail.
In response to the well placed shots and deer running farther than expected: I've experienced damage like you've shown with a variety of bullets. Typically on well placed shots with that type of damage the majority of deer don't go far. I have come to accept that some deer when shot are at the height of an adrenaline rush and or are just more determined and somehow capable to live an extra 5 seconds with incredible damage to vital organs. They can cover a lot of ground in those few seconds. In those cases I don't blame the bullet because it obviously did what it was supposed to do and the shot placement was where it was supposed to be. Some individual animals have that extra zest which allows them to live for a few more seconds and I chalk it up to cheers to that tough bugger rather than blame bullet performance or shot placement which both have shown to be perfect. Without brain hits, spine hits, or large bone destruction, deer and other game will react differently to very well placed kill shots.
 
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Deer are both of these things:

Deer aren't hard to kill

Deer are tough buggers and have a real tenacity for life.

Bears are also described these ways. I'm sure we've all tracked a deer that impressed us with how far it made it with the kind of injury it had. But yet, the same people will claim that deer aren't very tough and they're easy to kill? Is it one thing or the other being true? Or both?
 
Yeah, I learned the early X's and no expansion, two or three weeks after the doe incident. I never used expensive bullets again. Mono bullets, Cutting Edge, Bear Claw, Swift and the like. They used to be Nosler BT but they went from 100 bullets to 50 bullets and Hornady jacked their prices up, so I try not to buy the The only jacketed bullets I use are Speer and Hornady SST. Oh, I have factory seconds in 150gr SP, 7mm. I bought them because they were cheap, $13 or $14/box of 100_bullets. I bought 800 bullets.

In case your wondering, "why that cheap SOB"...you are right. I am cheap. My disability check makes me cheap. I got a crate and a half of Lyman #2 for about $125 or $150 at an auction. I have enuff primers to last me a lifetime, but my powder is getting light. Anyway, I shoot about .04cents a primer, .10-.25cents powder and .01-.02cents a cast boolit. It may be more on the powder, tho. So I shoot .31cents a shot. It is much better than over $1 a shot in factory loads or reloaded jacketed loads at .50cents or more.

I would do " custom " bullets, but I don't have the money. I don't even have the money to hunt out of state. Besides, when I use cast boolits, I am using my own boolit .
In no way do I consider you to be cheap. I am a fan of what it takes for the cast bullet makers to do their thing just as much I am all for anyone who has a passion about whatever bullet(s) they use. All the different bullets are different ways to accomplish the same goal. Use what ya want and put them in good spots.
 
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I'm currently having a debate with someone about the smallest ethical deer caliber. My personal opinion is the .243. I know many say the .223 will kill deer,and it will. I just pick the .243. There's really no point in this post other than to garner opinions and/or first person experience. Thanks for looking
Small calibers will kill deer. The problem is they don't leave much of a blood trail with marginal hits, as well as larger calibers. It is more about shot placement. Have an ethical shot placement with any caliber and a good bullet for deer.
 
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