[Bigbrownie]

...I thought the topic was smallest caliber for whitetail deer...not moose

Again, what is your idea of a “ bad shot “? I injected moose into the discussion to illustrate that magnum calibers expand your choice of shot opportunities. The same holds true for deer.

 

[triggercreep]

I really started changing my idea of what's needed when Chip Hailstone from Life Below Zero started posting on the 24hourcampfire years ago. He lives near Nome Alaska and he said he had taken everything in western Alaska many times over with just a 243 and 100 grain Core-Lokt. He said he never found it inadequate

 

[dce]

To address this statement, what are you calling a “ bad shot”?

A head shot? A frontal shot? A shot to the hind end? A midsection gut shot? A quartering to you shot?

Frontal and quartering to you shots are easy slam dunks with a magnum caliber. Nothing unethical or irresponsible. Shoot one mid brisket or into its shoulder coming at you with a .300 WM, it’ll be laying where you shot it. Killed four bull moose with frontal shots with belted magnums, watched them fall. Same shot with a light bullet from a small caliber, no where near the same results. Thats where a magnum caliber shines.

I don’t know anyone who would deliberately aim at an animals gut or hind quarter, with any caliber. And head shots…. I’ll pass.

My son killed a big doe and a 3.5 year old buck with frontal shots.The doe bulldozed about 25 yards and the buck made it maybe,30-40 yards.No blood with either,except where they laid.When I skinned the buck,the bullet was lodged under the hide near the hindquarter.Those little TTSX's really shine with the smaller calibers.They open up and penetrate like crazy for a 50+gr bullet.I killed a few doe with it and I wouldn't feel handicapped if forced to use one.I wouldn't go using a vmax but the right bullet makes them lethal.

 

[Wingatchtochwilsit]

I'm currently having a debate with someone about the smallest ethical deer caliber.

This is the question… and as I pointed out there is not and never will be a “correct” answer…simply because of the word “ethical”.

To address this statement, what are you calling a “ bad shot”?

A head shot? A frontal shot? A shot to the hind end? A midsection gut shot? A quartering to you shot?

Frontal and quartering to you shots are easy slam dunks with a magnum caliber. Nothing unethical or irresponsible. Shoot one mid brisket or into its shoulder coming at you with a .300 WM, it’ll be laying where you shot it. Killed four bull moose with frontal shots with belted magnums, watched them fall. Same shot with a light bullet from a small caliber, no where near the same results. Thats where a magnum caliber shines.

I don’t know anyone who would deliberately aim at an animals gut or hind quarter, with any caliber. And head shots…. I’ll pass.

I think you outlined the inherent conundrum of the OP’s question perfectly.
Ethics are largely defined at the individual level, and as another poster stated (paraphrasing) rather malleable depending on the tool in one’s hand.

I’ll take a 100 yard or less headshot on a relaxed, unaware deer any day of the week and twice on Sundays, whether I’m carrying my 06, 30-30, or a .223. I won’t ever take a straight on shot into the brisket, a Texas heart shot, or any extreme angle/small window, or “brush shot” on any animal, no matter what I’m carrying… because I don’t find them compatible with MY ethics, which are defined by MY shooting ability, MY opinions on what constitutes a clean kill, and MY desire to ruin as little meat as possible.

If these questions were focused on objective tangibles like muzzle energy we might be able to reach a consensus… but even that’s a stretch.

 

[Hunter8319]

That's it. That is just my opinion.

The 22s will get it done on broadside shots, but you don't always get the perfect shot angle.

I get it. I should have been more specific, I was mainly commenting on your statement of having to wait for the perfectly broadside shot with having no experience doing so. I’ve shot lots of deer with the .223 and I don’t wait for perfectly broadside shots.

 

[triggercreep]

I've taken a Texas heart shot with a 243 and so has my son. Worked both times

 

[mfuff]

Again, what is your idea of a “ bad shot “? I injected moose into the discussion to illustrate that magnum calibers expand your choice of shot opportunities. The same holds true for deer.

I have found through informal conversation at my businesses over 35 years that more people than I ever considered possible were content shooting AT deer more than picking a spot on deer to shoot. "I hit one", "I had two get away from me", "I drew blood", "I found bone", "I got hair", "my bullet is too fast and it didn't expand, so it just made a pinhole through the heart" and a pile of other I Can't Believe They Say That Out Loud and Without Embarrassment statements. Oh I forgot the "I fired and it didn't drop so I guess I didn't hit it" doozies.
Too many just want to get a bullet in a deer and hope for the best. So those are my versions of bad shots.

 

[WOL]

I get it. I should have been more specific, I was mainly commenting on your statement of having to wait for the perfectly broadside shot with having no experience doing so. I’ve shot lots of deer with the .223 and I don’t wait for perfectly broadside shots.

If I had a head-on or hard quartering-to shot on a 250 pound buck or 500 pound bear, I would be more comfortable with a heavier bullet. The 223 may get the job done, but something bigger would mathematically give me better odds.

 

[35 whelen]

My grandfather always said the barrel should be about big enough for a mouse to run down it.

 

[1Birddog]

A centerfire .224 cartridge can, has, and will kill deer just as well or as poorly as every other cartridge. Bullet placement is #1, even with less than ideal bullets.
Typically, the majority of .224 HP, SP, and Tipped bullets are lightly constructed and are made to expand and disintegrate quickly on varmints and predators. It is unfortunate that many people use such bullets for deer, but, it is also proof that under ideal circumstances, and when placed in the perfect spots...those bullets will kill deer.
Luckily now more than ever, there are a variety of bullets in .224 that are specifically made to be used on deer sized animals. They offer better penetration when less than ideal shot angles are available.
I have ZERO reservations about using 50gr or 55gr Copper bullets in .223 for deer. And have some loaded, range tested, and sent through some woodchucks in preparation for the time when my AR is legal to use for deer.

You mentioned 50-55 gr copper so I would like your thoughts on using a 44 grain hammer hunter at 3700 fps from a 223 bolt action for deer? They are rated for small to medium size game.

 

[mfuff]

You mentioned 50-55 gr copper so I would like your thoughts on using a 44 grain hammer hunter at 3700 fps from a 223 bolt action for deer? They are rated for small to medium size game.

I'd have zero issues with using a 44gr Hammer. I mentioned 50-55gr because that is what I have.
I'll be using light for caliber Hammer bullets in 444 this year.

 

[410-er]

40 grain Sierra 22-250 at 4,000 fps makes a mess of the lungs!

 

[mfuff]

40 grain Sierra 22-250 at 4,000 fps makes a mess of the lungs!

No doubt that it would but those are Patience or Pass projectiles for deer unless shooting at varmints. Without question they are made to explode. I've had them come apart on soybean plants, I wouldn't count on them going through a rib and making it into the 2nd lung consistently.
To each his own though. Nobody brags about the shots that don't kill.

 

[RVAWJ]

I don't see any advantage in engaging in a race to the bottom to find the smallest deer caliber / cartridge that will work. I personally draw my minimum line at 6mm / .243, but prefer a 6.5 and 7mm is better yet. The difference between 5 ft lb of recoil and 12 ft lb for me is negligible.

This doesn't mean that smaller won't work, but there is no advantage to going smaller. There is no practical upside and some potential downside. I have nothing to gain.

 

[WOL]

I'd have zero issues with using a 44gr Hammer.

When the 44 grain Hammer sheds its petals, what is the weight of the shank. And how much momentum would that carry for deep penetration?

 

[Bigbrownie]

I don't see any advantage in engaging in a race to the bottom to find the smallest deer caliber / cartridge that will work. I personally draw my minimum line at 6mm / .243, but prefer a 6.5 and 7mm is better yet. The difference between 5 ft lb of recoil and 12 ft lb for me is negligible.

My wife has hunted with a .300 WSM for 17 years. Killed at least three dozen deer with it. I bought her a .243 Savage back in 2010, but she doesn’t use it. She says the BLR drops them in their tracks. Never measured the recoil, but never once has she mentioned that it kicked. She got these bucks in the last few seasons…..

 

[mfuff]

When the 44 grain Hammer sheds its petals, what is the weight of the shank. And how much momentum would that carry for deep penetration?

If I ever send one into a deer and recover it, I will let you know!

Hammer bullets have a forum. I'd guess that there are detailed threads about how those 44gr did or didn't perform from a variety of velocities and distances.
I am pretty confident that whatever is left of that shank (25-30gr?) of solid copper that is still going much faster (2x to3x) than any .22lr bullet will be enough to get it to and through at least 2 lungs.

 

[Treehermit]

Nobody brags about the shots that don't kill.

Nor will you ever know what exactly went wrong.

 

[mfuff]

My wife has hunted with a .300 WSM for 17 years. Killed at least three dozen deer with it. I bought her a .243 Savage back in 2010, but she doesn’t use it. She says the BLR drops them in their tracks. Never measured the recoil, but never once has she mentioned that it kicked. She got these bucks in the last few seasons…..

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Having confidence in your firearm and cartridge is a huge advantage.
She is deadly!

 

[410-er]

The 22 mag also makes a mess of lungs from 50 to 150yds. and we never lost one when doing crop damage in the 80's.
If it would not work why would Maine and some southern states have it as a legal caliber for deer.
They are not for every hunter only the disciplined ones.
That 40 grain did the most damage (2x so far) I have seen in deer shot with calibers up to the 45-70.
I would imagine a double shoulder 45-70 shot would be bad but I don't like throwing meat away or butchering one just to say" I got one".
My favorite caliber for bang flop is the 243 with an 85 grain Sierra BT.