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Grouse flushing out of range

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3.5K views 22 replies 15 participants last post by  timberdoodle  
#1 ·
90% of the grouse I've flushed this year (about 10) have been out of range of modified.

Last year I had much better luck. Last year I hunted without a dog.

This year I've brought along my Field-bred English Cocker on most hunts. He stays close.

Any ideas why the birds are so skittish here in SW PA?

I'm going out tomorrow and I am thinking of taking my pump with a full choke and my dog. At least that way I may get a shot in.

Or I may leave fido home and just take my SxS. I love having my pup with me though.


If only they held tight like woodcock I'd be in heaven.

Thanks for reading. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

UplandJim
 
#4 ·
I think its a number of factors...

But I don't know what they are lol...I hunt the same birds a few times in the same week and some days they hold tight...others they flush a mile out...might hear them if you listen closely...

I don't understand it...I thought ground/walking conditions and noise but that doesn't always seem true...
 
#5 ·
It is hard to say why a grouse will flush wild one day and hold tight the next...and 10 grouse flushes are a small sample size. I would say in a good day of hunting, I may move say 25 birds. Even on a good day when they are holding tight, I may only get a shot at maybe 5-6 birds (granted some of the birds I have up will be groups of up to 5 birds at a time). My point is that even on a good day when I think the birds are holding tight, you still don't get many shots. My setter is very cautious and rarely if ever bumps a bird so I am getting a lot of chances. Some days my dog is pointing them at a long distance and we just can't get close to them. Some days if, for example, she points 10 birds, 8 of them we can't get near and 2 of them blow up in my face.

What do I think are the factors? It may be hunting pressure...it may be the weather. I think grouse hold a lot tighter on calm days rather than windy days. I think they hold better on rainy days compared to dry days. I think if you move quietly and stop a lot they get nervous and flush further away than when moving through the cover at an even pace.

The type of cover you are hunting may play a factor...some of the areas I hunt are very thick (high stem density of trees), but if there is sparse ground cover (no downed trees, brush piles, ect. or flat topography) the birds as a general rule will not hold as tight as opposed to cover that has a lot of ground cover (i.e. trees tops) and uneven topography like hillsides or even lots of old dirt piles next to a logging road that were made when they built the road.

You can take all of this for what it is worth but I always thought the key was finding thick, high-density stem cover where the loggers left a lot of "junk" on the ground rather than totally clearing the land when it was logged. Another key is finding a lot of birds (I know, easier said than done) since the more birds you can come into contact with the better your odds of getting a couple to hold tight for you.

Another thing I have observed over my many years of chasing grouse is that a lot of the birds I get that hold very tight (i.e. blow up in your face) are mature birds. I really think as a general rule, young birds are more "jumpy" then adult birds. If you think about it, it makes some sense. A grouse that takes to the air is much more vulnerable to predators as now it is spotted easier, is expending more energy and is now taken out of his "comfort zone" and displaced maybe to a place it is not as familiar with. A bird that gets up and flies at every little sound, IMO, puts themselves in a lot greater danger. Also, there have been many times I have walked right past a grouse only to have my setter come around and point the bird right where I just walked through.

Hunting pressure may also play a role...I never believed this until last year just before deer season, my buddies and I were at their lease they hunt for deer. Nobody grouse hunts it that they know of. We were messing around by the fire outside and drinking a few cold ones. I had my setter along and there was a couple of decent sized clearcuts right behind the fire pit. My buddy says lets go take a swing around the clearcuts with the dog. He said they see grouse there all the time. So we took a walk and my setter pointed about 8 grouse or so. Not really a big deal for me but the amazing part was that these birds sat so tight it was like hunting pheasants (no offense to the pheasant hunters). To me it was obvious that these birds were not pressured by hunting at all.

Also, I like using a bell on my dog as I do believe the constant sound of the bell will put birds more at ease since they know where the sound is as opposed to when everything gets quiet and they get nervous when they can't pinpoint you anymore.

Hope this helps...at the very least it may bring on some debate but these are just some of my observations. However, I will admit that every theory I have ever had about grouse and grouse hunting, at some point I have also disproved these theories...that is what makes these birds "King of the Uplands".
 
#6 ·
Barberry said:
It is hard to say why a grouse will flush wild one day and hold tight the next...and 10 grouse flushes are a small sample size. I would say in a good day of hunting, I may move say 25 birds. Even on a good day when they are holding tight, I may only get a shot at maybe 5-6 birds (granted some of the birds I have up will be groups of up to 5 birds at a time). My point is that even on a good day when I think the birds are holding tight, you still don't get many shots. My setter is very cautious and rarely if ever bumps a bird so I am getting a lot of chances. Some days my dog is pointing them at a long distance and we just can't get close to them. Some days if, for example, she points 10 birds, 8 of them we can't get near and 2 of them blow up in my face.

What do I think are the factors? It may be hunting pressure...it may be the weather. I think grouse hold a lot tighter on calm days rather than windy days. I think they hold better on rainy days compared to dry days. I think if you move quietly and stop a lot they get nervous and flush further away than when moving through the cover at an even pace.

The type of cover you are hunting may play a factor...some of the areas I hunt are very thick (high stem density of trees), but if there is sparse ground cover (no downed trees, brush piles, ect. or flat topography) the birds as a general rule will not hold as tight as opposed to cover that has a lot of ground cover (i.e. trees tops) and uneven topography like hillsides or even lots of old dirt piles next to a logging road that were made when they built the road.

You can take all of this for what it is worth but I always thought the key was finding thick, high-density stem cover where the loggers left a lot of "junk" on the ground rather than totally clearing the land when it was logged. Another key is finding a lot of birds (I know, easier said than done) since the more birds you can come into contact with the better your odds of getting a couple to hold tight for you.

Another thing I have observed over my many years of chasing grouse is that a lot of the birds I get that hold very tight (i.e. blow up in your face) are mature birds. I really think as a general rule, young birds are more "jumpy" then adult birds. If you think about it, it makes some sense. A grouse that takes to the air is much more vulnerable to predators as now it is spotted easier, is expending more energy and is now taken out of his "comfort zone" and displaced maybe to a place it is not as familiar with. A bird that gets up and flies at every little sound, IMO, puts themselves in a lot greater danger. Also, there have been many times I have walked right past a grouse only to have my setter come around and point the bird right where I just walked through.

Hunting pressure may also play a role...I never believed this until last year just before deer season, my buddies and I were at their lease they hunt for deer. Nobody grouse hunts it that they know of. We were messing around by the fire outside and drinking a few cold ones. I had my setter along and there was a couple of decent sized clearcuts right behind the fire pit. My buddy says lets go take a swing around the clearcuts with the dog. He said they see grouse there all the time. So we took a walk and my setter pointed about 8 grouse or so. Not really a big deal for me but the amazing part was that these birds sat so tight it was like hunting pheasants (no offense to the pheasant hunters). To me it was obvious that these birds were not pressured by hunting at all.

Also, I like using a bell on my dog as I do believe the constant sound of the bell will put birds more at ease since they know where the sound is as opposed to when everything gets quiet and they get nervous when they can't pinpoint you anymore.

Hope this helps...at the very least it may bring on some debate but these are just some of my observations. However, I will admit that every theory I have ever had about grouse and grouse hunting, at some point I have also disproved these theories...that is what makes these birds "King of the Uplands".
Barberry, I've been chasing grouse around the woods for 54 years now. I've made my living for close to 40 years training grouse dogs. I can not find one thing to disagree with. I would say that you have had the same conclusions as I have had.
The one thing that I would add is that I find that a really fast dog that covers a fair amount of grounds is more likely to get the running birds pinned and nailed down.
 
#9 ·
Pressure plays in I believe. Public land birds are a greater challenge for my dog and myself. They've been pointed, flushed, shot at, and bumped by hunters in pursuit of other species. I make more bird contacts on public land, but my success rates are lower. I hunt a few private spots and while those birds still behave like grouse, they tend to hold a little tighter.
Ive started to think the location of the bird plays into things. Is the bird caught in an exposed location and feels no security, or is the bird in a tight spot and tries to hold out a little before making a move. When I find birds that aren't in traditional picture perfect cover, such as birds that ventured into the open just outside of tight cover, they rarely allow me a shot. The dog might point them, but seeing and hearing me approach in the wide open seems to guarantee they make a hasty exit.
 
#11 ·
angus said:
I have nothing to add. I just want to thank Barberry and Tom for their wisdom.
I agree, Good info Joe.

Jim, right now we are also finding the birds very difficult to get near, your not alone. Almost all of the contacts we are having right now the birds seem to be walking (or running) away from any sounds before they flush. Usually there are a few that will hold, not right now!
 
#13 ·
Gentlemen,
At this time of the season most of the birds are mature
and it takes a real good dog not to spook them into flight.
Repetative hunting of the same coverts is not a good idea, try finding some new and different coverts, you will probably find the Grouse less spooky in an area where few have hunted before. It also seems we have had more out of state men Grouse hunting this year. The more pressure added the spookier the birds get, we also have a big coyote problem here in Pa now, which keeps the Grouse very spooky.
At this point I recommend a real sneaky Grouse dog if you plan on coming home with a couple birds.
Pine Creek/Dave



 
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#15 ·
I think the KEY factor is human population concentration (of which hunting pressure is a symptom). From my experience in Maine the grouse in the populated areas were alway skiddish and flushed wild. These are places were all year long there are people in the woods riding an ATV, hiking or riding a sled in winter. I had some "productive" covers in southern Maine, but my covers that were in the unorganized territories or in the North Maine Woods had birds that held unbelievably well.

Another factor I think that effects guys who hunt over dogs is the increasing presence of coyotes.
 
#16 ·
OharaTree,
No bell required, a good Grouse dog must have a serious nose and brains however. A great Grouse dog must also be sneaky when the birds are ultra spooky.
Pine Creek/Dave
 
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#17 ·
Not sure what PCD means by a sneaky grouse dog but I think the OP was asking about why grouse flush out of range...if you are hunting with a dog there are only two outcomes that will occur as the dog comes into contact with a grouse...either he will point it or bust it. Just because the grouse flushes does not mean it was the dogs fault. When my dog goes on point I move ahead of her into position...I am the one flushing the bird 99% of the time. It makes no difference how sneaky your dog is. Also...no dog or hunter is sneaking up on a grouse...they know you are coming...at what point the grouse feels insecure and flushes is the variable.

An example of this is what happened to me on Saturday... lilly goes on point and I move in and a bird flushes about 80 yards ahead...lilly doesn't move but after a few minutes she breaks and points again about 50 yards ahead. I was thinking that it was the bird that flushed...wrong, a second bird busts not 10 yards away and next to where the first bird flushed...in that case the first bird left early and the second held tight...that is grouse hunting when your quarry is unpredictable most of the time.

Yesterday... we had some birds that sat unbelievablly tight.
 
#18 ·
Barberry said:
Not sure what PCD means by a sneaky grouse dog but I think the OP was asking about why grouse flush out of range...if you are hunting with a dog there are only two outcomes that will occur as the dog comes into contact with a grouse...either he will point it or bust it.
Don't forget about us guys that run flushers! When the grouse are running, my labs will scent trail them until they get close to the distance limit they are allowed to hunt from me. That distance varies depending on the thickness of the cover but is generally 15-25 yards. When the scent trail goes outside that limit they stop and wait for me or I whistle them back.

Sometimes the grouse will hold up after the dog stops trailing it, sometimes it keeps going and flushes wild. I like to believe that if there are grouse in the immediate area, my labs will pick up the scent and flush them before they have a chance to run out of range but who knows?

As to why they sometimes flush wild, I think hunting pressure is a factor. In parts of Canada, where they are rarely hunted, they sit along two-tracks and you can walk right up to them.

I also believe cover, as mentioned by the above poster, plays a role. The more open the ground cover, the more they seem to run and flush out of range, heavier ground cover seems to hold them tighter...sometimes...

The only thing I know for sure; grouse do what they want and I don't drive myself crazy trying to figure out why!

And now for the unsolicited flushing dog pic (sorry, couldn't resist). This pic is of my buddy after my lab flushed two grouse from under snow covered logs, he got them both, a true double!

 
#19 ·
Lugnut...that is impressive you have your flusher trained that well. I owned a lab and hunted grouse and pheasant with her but when she hit bird scent...it was over as there was no way I could stop her...lol. I guess she didn't need me based on her ability to bring back pheasants to me without me ever pulling the trigger!!!
 
#20 ·
Lugnut said:
Barberry said:
Not sure what PCD means by a sneaky grouse dog but I think the OP was asking about why grouse flush out of range...if you are hunting with a dog there are only two outcomes that will occur as the dog comes into contact with a grouse...either he will point it or bust it.
Don't forget about us guys that run flushers! When the grouse are running, my labs will scent trail them until they get close to the distance limit they are allowed to hunt from me. That distance varies depending on the thickness of the cover but is generally 15-25 yards. When the scent trail goes outside that limit they stop and wait for me or I whistle them back.

Sometimes the grouse will hold up after the dog stops trailing it, sometimes it keeps going and flushes wild. I like to believe that if there are grouse in the immediate area, my labs will pick up the scent and flush them before they have a chance to run out of range but who knows?

As to why they sometimes flush wild, I think hunting pressure is a factor. In parts of Canada, where they are rarely hunted, they sit along two-tracks and you can walk right up to them.

I also believe cover, as mentioned by the above poster, plays a role. The more open the ground cover, the more they seem to run and flush out of range, heavier ground cover seems to hold them tighter...sometimes...

The only thing I know for sure; grouse do what they want and I don't drive myself crazy trying to figure out why!

And now for the unsolicited flushing dog pic (sorry, couldn't resist). This pic is of my buddy after my lab flushed two grouse from under snow covered logs, he got them both, a true double!

NOW THATS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!!
Image
 
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#21 ·
Barberry said:
Lugnut...that is impressive you have your flusher trained that well. I owned a lab and hunted grouse and pheasant with her but when she hit bird scent...it was over as there was no way I could stop her...lol. I guess she didn't need me based on her ability to bring back pheasants to me without me ever pulling the trigger!!!
Thank you, but to be honest, not all my labs were trained like that!

When I was younger, many times a buddy and I would jog after a lab scent-trailing a pheasant hoping to be in range when it got the edge of cover and flushed. Now that I'm getting too old to enjoy running after them like that, I enforce sit-stay-come a lot more than I used to.

Impressive that your lab caught pheasants on her own! Other than chasing down cripples, the closest any of mine came to that was a mouthful of tail feathers from one that sat a little too tight.

Twice I had them bring back rabbits after extended chases, rabbits I could have swore I missed (dog disappeared for five minutes after the shot and came back with a rabbit).
 
#22 ·
I like hearing of grouse lab guys. I need to work with my lab on whistle sit commands, and retriever skills over the summer.

I would say most of the wild flushes that I see are not due to my lab, but due to me being stuck in the brush or something and making more noise. Even when my lab (70-80 pound) is going through cover, she is no where near as loud as I am.

I think we blame a lot more on the dogs than we should in a lot of cases.
 
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