[Npappert1991]

Just a lot of cutting starting to age into prime without getting into too much detail. Not all prime grouse habitat, but enough cutting, there should be a lot more grouse than there are imo.

It will take time. I'm hopeful for the future. I'm 32 so I have some time.

 

[The Pennsylvanian]

8 days with 1 weekend in December. Will they give us extra time at the beginning of the season to make up for the short season? Nope!!!

Glad I have a geezer license so I don't have to give another penny to the commission. And 6 weeks hunting out of state so I can enjoy real grouse hunting.

Not sure exactly what you're saying here but it sounds like you are upset that the season is short is so short and are blaming the PGC.
Is the October season not included? Also it's very well known how scarce the population is. Obviously, they are trying to limit harvest while still providing the opportunity to hunt.
On top of that these season a set around the rifle season which has hard start dates, that's why they get squeezed.

PA hardly gives you enough time to develop a grouse dog. Eight days in December is pathetic. This is why I carry NY and WV licenses.

Again, sure can't argue ahaindt your point. However, it's not their job to provide you time to develop your tools, it is first and foremost to protect and preserve the resource and then to provide opportunity. You can develop your dog all year long otherwise.....

 

[LostAgain]

How about if we cut the archery season back to 4 weeks? No biological reason to hunt during the rut other than antler lust.

 

[LostAgain]

If the commission told me I couldn't hunt for a few years I honestly wouldn't care if it meant the birds would come back. **** I would even pay for a grouse stamp if that money went to more habitat projects and resources.

Once its gone, its never coming back. And even if the season would return, what are the grouse enthusiasts supposed to hunt during those years?

Creating grouse habitat brings money into the GC, a stamp would just be another way to waste money with no positive return for grouse populations.

 

[elk yinzer]

There's no biological reason to bowhunt, or grouse hunt, at all for that matter. I don't think that's the hill either endeavor wants to die on.

 

[LostAgain]

Seems there are a lot more people that endorse a shortened season and even suspending it than there are people trying to preserve what we have and get back what we used to have. I'm willing to die on that hill to preserve grouse hunting in Pa for future. I only have 1 more goal in grouse hunting and i can achieve that in any state.

 

[RyanR]

Maybe we could discuss facts?

Fact is this year's season was cut short but the PGC. That's being disingenuous and why half of us were confused by the initial rant. Across the board for all game, the season dates are affected more this year simply because of the calendar. But the grouse season was made shorter as a result of a new decision by the PGC

Another fact is the late (post-Christmas) season was curtailed (by the PGC.) Not going to go into detail about the reasons initially given (basically it was in the hopes of better recruitment of grouse, particularly WNV survivors, into the spring) There's some sort of formula for bringing it back (has to do with flush rates, brood surveys, etc.) Lost and some others believe it's never coming bsck because they'll come up with reasons not to. That's not without merit because I wonder about that too but there is at least some method "on the books" at least.

I don't know that elevation totally has nothing to do with it but what does have the most to do with it is absolutely Habitat, Habitat, Habitat. Even Lisa Williams, the driver of WNV theory, always said that. Pretty sure most of us with some knowledge of grouse issues agree on that, even if we disagree on some other things.

Personally, at the time and reasons given I wasn't against ending the post-Christmas season even though it was my favorite part of grouse hunting. Now I'm not as supportive of it as I was. Regardless there is absolutely no reason to close or further shorten the season, it would not positively affect numbers or save the future of grouse. It would however destroy grouse hunting and the most vocal group supporting grouse.

 

[LostAgain]

I'm not blaming the GC for the way the calendar dates fall, I'm saying they should have given grouse hunters another week/weekend at the beginning of the season to make up for that lost weekend. And lets not forget, we also lost a Saturday for the deer hunters. If you only get to hunt weekends, it gets hard to justify keeping and feeding a dog for 7 days to hunt.

LW was the biggest cheerleader for elevation to create habitat. Remember that useless map she came out with and was telling everyone to cut as much as they can above 2000 feet, even had it color coded based on elevation? I was the loudest person against that as I know plenty of areas well below her 1600 foot threshold. If fact what used to be my best area before it became a deer lease was at 1500 feet. Whatever happened to that idiot map? Havent heard anything about it since its initial rollout. Here is the link. GPAST map. I can tell you my best area this past year doesnt even make the color coding.

As for their initial formula, that has been thrown out the window. Part of the formula was WNV, well now that its basically non-existent, they had to come up with a new metric. That now metric is now comparing border counties in Pa compared to NY. The theory is with a shortened season, flush rates will be better in Pa, showing that not having a late season is benefitting grouse numbers in Pa. Now, I havent heard what counties they're using, but I'm betting they are using Warren, McKean, Potter. Those counties have the most cutting in Pa, and if you cross the border there is very little cutting and very little public land, so of course Pa numbers will be better. But go east to Bradford, Susquehanna, Wayne, and Pike counties, and everything changes drastically. Not much cutting in those counties. And everyone knows that the further east you go in NY, the better the grouse hunting becomes. Most of the famed grouse areas in NY where studies were done in years past are in that area of NY. Some of the initial grouse trials were held in that region. Grouse Ridge kennels where the NY championship is held is in that region. I saw numbers the first year of this metric, but havent seen anything since. LW is real good at hiding what she doesnt want anyone else to see.

LW has moved up the ladder, and hired an inexperienced lackey to carry on the scam she started with grouse hunters, and 90% of the people fell for it.

 

[RyanR]

I don't disagree with your idea about give more time earlier to make up for it but the calendar affected the start or stop of a number of seasons and the PGC just doesn't do that. Now the argument that with the loss of the post-Christmas season AND the loss of that Saturday after Thanksgiving, grouse hunters have had more taken from them than any others and the PGC could afford to give an earlier start in general each year is a good argument.

As for elevation, yeah I bought it and most of my best areas were above 2000' and my best area was about 2400'. But was that more because of that elevation and WNV theory or because those areas just happened to be where the best habitat was that I found? I've been starting to put much more stock into it being more habitat than elevation. Because I also had good spots well below that and they did seemingly drop off a ton for a couple years which made me believe the elevation theory more but then they came back, especially this year. Now, I've only been hunting grouse here for 10, 11 seasons but one thing I noticed in that decade that the last 5 years have seen a lot more cutting and habitat work then the first 5. I mean really noticeable (especially in my best spot but that also has the most contiguous public land and already had some of the best habitat.) I've put less and less stock lately into the WNV thing but if LW and her WNV alarm got the PGC to put more effort into cutting in the last 5 years or so than previous well I guess she accomplished some sort of good. I think you know I hunt the NE region for 95% of my grouse hunting, mainly Bradford, Susquehanna, Sullivan Carbon, Wyoming, Luzerne and Monroe. The last 5 years a number of the SGLs in those counties has seen a big jump in cutting. I'm hopeful because in a number of them there are still birds. And in my best spot where I've had the most flushes over the years and has thr most existing habitat, the cutting up there has really stepped up so the birds should really respond in beginning in about 5 more years or so.

 

[The Pennsylvanian]

, I havent heard what counties they're using, but I'm betting they are using Warren, McKean, Potter. Those counties have the most cutting in Pa

I'm hunting warren, Forrest, elk, mckean. We've always had birds around, not "good" numbers but you'd flush a bakers dozen in a couple mile trek. Since 2001 there has been large tract clear cutting, and selective harvest every single year in my hunting areas. It wasn't until the past 3-5 seasons that we start good to really good grouse densities. Last October I flushed 24 birds over 600 yards while blood trailing a deer, while in the tree stand, you could hear almost constant drumming. I didn't get to hunt grouse this season because I suck at time management but had I taken my shotgun to camp in October, it would had been a slammer year. That particular area was a 7yr old 400acre clear cut, thick as all get out. So I can vouch for the amount of cutting that's going on in those counties and how much it benefits the birds, but it took along time for those benefits to create really good hunting.

 

[LostAgain]

For those interested in the old matrix, here is the link, it will download the matrix.

Take notice the state was divided up into 2 regions; fall flush counts were also divided by those 2 regions. But.... Summer flush counts and WNV incidences are calculated statewide, why? Simple answer, the lower 2/3 of the state will drag down the numbers to ensure there is never a late season again. LW is great for research that will reach the conclusion she wants but would never pass a peer review.

Matrix link

 

[Flint Lock]

I recently read an article discussing the impact of hunting harvest on grouse numbers. I can't seem to find it now, but the argument used by some states (I seem to recall one of them being WV) is that bag limits, particularly in the late season, are "compensatory mortality". You can look it up yourself, but the gist of it is that the game taken by hunters would have died of natural causes anyway (predation, starvation, disease, etc.), so hunter harvest does not result in any less population numbers than does natural mortality.

I am not arguing this, just presenting it. If this is theory is right though, then restricting grouse hunting seasons in PA accomplishes nothing other than reducing interest and hunter participation, which over the long term will be most detrimental.

 

[RyanR]

Lost, I meant to say in my earlier reply that I agree with you about your opinion on using those 3 counties in the northern tier with the best cutting to compare flush rates to their counterparts just over the border that actually don't see a lot of cutting and what that will accomplish in "proving."

As grouse hunters, the best thing we can do is to strongly and loudly continue advocating to the PGC to keep cutting. Forget WNV. Keep hammering home the habitat, habitat, habitat message.

BTW, do you know for sure if LW is still with the PGC? I think she might've retired.

 

[elk yinzer]

Why does usually small game have bag limits and big game season limits? Why can't we just have a season limit for grouse, with longer seasons? Is that just way too far outside the box to even consider? Seems like a better way to balance opportunity and harvest to me.

 

[RyanR]

Lost, looking at the matrix and the two tier state division, from the description it sounds like a late-season itself could possibly be split. Like if data dictates, the northern tier could have a late-season one year while the south wouldn't or one could be shorter than the other if numbers indicated that? That's what I think I understood when reading it? Certainly a question I had anyway.

 

[LostAgain]

Compensatory vs additive mortality, long been discussed with various studies done. January thru sitting on nests at the end of April are the toughest 4 months for an adult grouse. Pa did a study back in the early 80s where some counties were closed and others were open for the late season. Study found no difference in flush rates, late season hunting had no affect on grouse numbers.

When you look at the Barrens research project, grouse numbers started to climb soon after the cutting started, even with hunting allowed. Half way thru the study they ended hunting. Numbers climbed a couple more years them fell quickly without any hunting until the study was ended and the flush rates were back where they were at the beginning of the study. Hunting had no affect on the flush rates.

 

[Flint Lock]

Compensatory vs additive mortality, long been discussed with various studies done. January thru sitting on nests at the end of April are the toughest 4 months for an adult grouse. Pa did a study back in the early 80s where some counties were closed and others were open for the late season. Study found no difference in flush rates, late season hunting had no affect on grouse numbers.

When you look at the Barrens research project, grouse numbers started to climb soon after the cutting started, even with hunting allowed. Half way thru the study they ended hunting. Numbers climbed a couple more years them fell quickly without any hunting until the study was ended and the flush rates were back where they were at the beginning of the study. Hunting had no affect on the flush rates.

Yeh, that's consistent with everything I have read. So why then, does the PGC keep the late season closed?

 

[LostAgain]

LW took a promotion 2 years ago and hand picked her successor to carry on her "legacy". I emailed the new person and the response was almost word for word what you would get from LW. I gave up. If she retired since then, i have no idea.

Season limits on small game? How would set them and how would you enforce it? We have possession limits for small game, virtually impossible to enforce. The late season is self limiting because of weather conditions. Very few people hunt then other than the last day if its sunny and warm out. Very few people shoot a daily limit, no one would reach a season limit.

 

[RyanR]

First, let me say harvest is not an issue with grouse populations IMO. But to entertain the issue, I guess you could have harvest tags. Any enforcement is an issue, that's why laws really rely on the 95% of the population that is law-abiding. So I'm not worried about that aspect. As grouse hunters most of us would adhere to a harvest limit (and i think most of the would-be cheaters probably aren’t good grouse hunters to begin with.) So say 10 tags per year, not a lot but certainly more than I'd have a prayer filling (I have less trouble finding them now and much more issue hitting them- I'm surprised my dogs haven't left me.) We could also be required to report harvest, perhaps similar to deer harvest reports. But again I agree that harvest is not an issue with grouse populations in PA.

 

[elk yinzer]

Beavers have a season limit in my WMU of 5, different # in other WMU's, with no tags or check process. That's a straightforward precedent.

Yes, enforcement is basically impossible, it's the honor system, but what game laws aren't? Let's be real, and no offense to the GW's and their disciples, but poaching is not hard to get away with. The outlaws basically have to be brazen idiots to get caught, which fortunately, most are, and the rest of us respect the rules in place and go about our business. Grouse hunters are a pretty refined group, I'm confident most would respect the resource and largely abide by an annual limit.

It seems reasonable to me and consistent with the PGC's modus operandi of late to favor flexibility in setting season structures. Open up the season more and let guys choose when they care to hunt them. It's not impossible to reduce harvest and expand opportunity, or should I say allow more flexibility, and you don't really need to think outside the box either. Everything is a balance, of course, but I like to find solutions that work for the greatest number of people. Sorry to say it, but the current structure falls well short of that.

I struggle quite a bit with data, science, and the field of wildlife biology. I have a background in 2 of those 3 and probably more experience in the woods than most biologists. I understand why things like the magic grouse matrix need to exist, and are based on scientifically valid methodologies, but at the same time have absolutely zero trust in the underlying data. Garbage in, garbage out. Wildlife biology and geographic variation is simply too chaotic for reliable data. I have no answer or alternative for that as I am aware we live in the data era and everything and anything needs to be quantified to the nth degree.