What?

 

PGC proposed hunting season on the PGC agenda thread.

 

You rejoiced the end of the Christmas season so the casual not real grouse hunters would quit, didn't ya? Well you made your bed and I indeed pretty much quit grouse hunting.

 

Yes, I said if we cant hunt until the end of January, we dont need Christmas week, all or nothing.

The biologists didnt want the Christmas week, as that is the week when most grouse are killed, more in that one week than all of January. So why would we have a 1 weeks season where the harvest eclipses all of January, or is higher than any week during the main fall season?

 

8 days in December after rifle. Everything is late this year. That grouse late season gets squeezed. I had to take a few laps to figure it out.

I say open grouse in rifle. I think it's dumb it's not. Guys are often off and if they don't need deer are just fooling around. Get some deer moving too.

 

Why should grouse season be squeezed based on calendar dates? There is no other season that loses days, all are adjusted so they have the same number of days as previous years. There should be no problem added a week/weekend at the start of the season when there is only 1 weekend in December. Other seasons had days added; late archer and flintlock season had a day added as soon as MLK day was declared a national holiday. It just goes to show, grouse hunters are the lowest on the totem pole of all hunters in Pa.

 

Things are pretty bad in my neck though presently. I haven't found a place I can shoot up in good conscience. And our habitat is through the roof.

 

can you elaborate on the statement "habitat is through the roof"? Do you mean habitat is improving?

 

The proposed 2024 Ruffed Grouse season is October 19th thru November 29th and reopens December 16th thru December 24th.

As much as I loved the post-Christmas season that is not a hill worth dying on for me. No, my outrage is with our ultra worthless PA legislator holding Sunday hunting hostage. I look at every legislator that is against this as my enemy.

 

You wont hunt grouse in January, you're waiting for the happy truck to deliver the next load of pheasants. While I enjoyed getting out for a half day hunt on Saturdays in November, I would get far more hunting time with the return of the January season. Amazing how it works on NY and WV, but not Pa.

 

I guess so grouse don't get killed that week while most guys are off work, right? So again, you got your wish, what seems to be your gripe?

 

PA hardly gives you enough time to develop a grouse dog. Eight days in December is pathetic. This is why I carry NY and WV licenses.

 

Spring turkey is squeezed a few days in 2024 also based on the calendar alignment around where Memorial Day falls.

 

Just so yinz know there’s a whole 5-6 weeks season in October/November.
Not sure why killing and pressuring bird during the hardest part of survival on them helps increase an already dwindling species. 😒

 

nevermind delete

 

I just don't understand what he is advocating as a solution. Doesn't want season in when the everyman is off, so when can add these days to the calendar yet ensure that its at a time that only the true grouse hunters can hunt?

 

Please explain what a true grouse hunter is, and why adding an extra week to the beginning of the current season would only be for true grouse hunters? Wouldnt that extra time be available for every hunter to participate? And it would allow an earlier start to the woodcock season instead of having an extra 9 days in December when the ground is frozen and the birds have migrated south.

 

Yikes !! Some here are grouchy old curmudgeons.
Narcissism is rampant in the world.
Me me me...
Hunt NY and north if you don't like the seasons.
I'm heading there next week.
Maybe I'll get a grouse or hare.
But don't really care.
Just me and the beagle getting away from Facebook people...🌛
In the words of jimbridger ..wah 😭!!

 

The length of all of the small game seasons as well as spring gobbler season and most of the furbearer seasons, in the number of days open to hunting, is always defendant on the way the calendar lines up with some of the holidays of that year.

As for grouse season in 2023 hunters had 48 days. In 2024 they will have 46 days open to hunting. But, since grouse numbers haven't been so great in resent times perhaps a couple fewer days to hunt them might not be a bad thing if your interest is in what is beneficial for the species and the future instead of only caring about your own immediate pleasure and benefits.

Dick Bodenhorn

 

Who said numbers werent good? Mostly those that dont hunt grouse or only go out for a day or two? How does NY and WV manage to hold decent populations when they are open until the end of February?

I dont need extra days for myself, but to get others involved. Opening day i had a youth out until he was soaked, didnt carry a gun. Weekend after i came back from a hunting trip i had a young adult out, first time hunting wild birds and over dogs. He ended the day with a woodcock, i never carried a gun. Monday of bear season i went out with a friend who 2 years before couldnt walk more than 100 yards without being out of breath, he killed his first grouse over the dog he was supposed to get before his health problems started. First Saturday of the December season i had 2 friends out, missed 4 grouse over points, 2 took off at my feet, i never carried a gun. When hunting alone, depending on the dog i was running i only carried a blank gun and other times carried a muzzleloader shotgun.

So stop with the accusations I only want a longer season for my own guilty reasons. Im trying to recruit younger hunters into the sport of grouse hunting before its too late.

 

Not to go to far down the rabbit hole, but PGC own study shows that hunting is not a driver of grouse populations. So the implication that wanting a longer season will harm the species and therefore I am a poor conservationist is demonstrably false, especially in the early season. Besides my shooting makes me a great conservationist.

The bigger interest is getting more people the ability to hunt for grouse and then hopefully advocate for habitat. In that regard the more days open, particularly weekends the better.

Besides this year I saw a little over 2 grouse per hour in PA and I spent considerable time in counties where "there are no more grouse". It is amazing how grouse rebound from some cutting when they were holding on by living in laurel.

 

Besides this year I saw a little over 2 grouse per hour in PA and I spent considerable time in counties where "there are no more grouse". It is amazing how grouse rebound from some cutting when they were holding on by living in laurel.

I have seen this too in West VA as well as locally here on our south-central PA state forests. Despite 20-30 years of little cutting, there are a handful of birds that are hanging on, in that laurel/rhododendron understory. Not many. Might move 1 or 2. But now that the DCNR is finally cutting in a bigger way, hopefully these "seed birds" will help flourish in the new cuts. They are in junk like this:

My Hattie dog pointing one in the laurel last January, and it's 250 yards from an 80 acre clear-cut in deer fence that was completed summer before last, where we've already got some birch, aspen, and scrub oak coming in, plus new laurel popping up... already has sumac, witch hazel, and grapevine on the edges... Pretty sure I saw a bird nesting on the edge of the cut as well.

It's not gonna happen immediately, but in 5-10 years, we're gonna be looking a lot better for grouse locally. Got some cuts in the 200 acre range happening.

A grouse biologist told me that, in "Appalachian ridge and valley" areas," grouse will typically disperse up to 1.9 miles from the nest, and up to 6 miles in a big brood year. They stop when they find a nice spot w/ food, escape cover, thermal cover, etc., the few things a grouse needs. However, a mature drummer might spend his whole life within 150 yards of his log, if he has a steady food source.

But if you don't have "seed birds," all the cutting in the world won't help you.

 

46 days for retirees. For most of us, it's a handful of Saturdays. (Heck it poured rain the first 3 this year.)

 

I can say that I have never hunted in the "field trial area" and would not do so, as that would be in bad form, even though it's closer to me than some places I hunt. And I would be very surprised if other field trial participants did so. There are plenty of other covers for grouse and woodcock in that part of PA.

However, it is public land, so I reckon people who are not involved in trialing hunt it. As is their legal right. I don't go over there during hunting season, so if there are people hunting around there, I very much doubt it's anyone who discovered it via trialing.

By the time trialing begins in September, both grouse and woodcock are big enough to fly, and the trialing season ends before nesting. No harm done. If I felt like it was harming anything, I wouldn't take part.

As far as pressure on grouse.... I'd say that most of us who hunt grouse realize it's a delicate resource that can fluctuate year to year. Once I shoot a bird, I am done in that cover for the year, period. And I will only hunt a cover once or twice a season. I took a couple new people out this year, and I told them why we approach it that way, that it's not a stocked pheasant field. Personally I am pretty much done shooting woodcock period, except to reward a young dog who has handled perfectly & needs feather in its mouth. I did shoot a couple this year. They are worth more to me on the wing than on the plate.

In terms of grouse hunting, I hope we get more hunters (to advocate for the resource) and more habitat. Indeed, our local RGS chapter is meeting with PGC biologists next week to help create some woodcock habitat locally, and we're planning to help run an event for new handlers/hunters in April, w/ focus on habitat, scouting, and dog basics.

 

Ok I know next to nothing about the trial thing, I just thought I saw more pressure in some areas nearby this year and was aware of that event. I have no idea how much of a thing with followers it may or may not be, apparently not so much. I'll stay out of that, it's beside the point.

Here is something that's been on my mind. Just subjective estimations, in that generic area, would you agree that turkeys decl ined significantly around the same time as grouse, but already bottomed out, and are starting to come back in a much more significant way than the grouse are? If so, do you think the grouse even bottomed out yet or still trending downward?

If so, does that concern you in the sense that it logically contradicts with the reasons we are being given for the declines? Or is it maybe just the cyclical nature of grouse to begin with coupled with other factors? Something else? Is there any sense in even speculating?

 

I know nothing about turkey population dynamics, but I have been seeing more over the last 2 years. But remember turkey needed brood cover just like grouse, and when there was little cutting that also meant little brood cover meaning predators had an advantage. More brood cover, more poults, more adult birds. Add in a couple good springs and turkey numbers are climbing.

Grouse have a more specific habitat need, so while there is more cutting, it doesn't mean it is quality habitat. And while Grouse don't cycle here like they do in the lake states their population will yoyo up and down, regionally and locally. While weather plays a big part of it, I still think there is a disease issue no one is looking at. If it's a disease, hopefully they build immunity. Have they hit bottom, I'd say yes, but how far up the population climbs is everyone's guess

If you want to see what trials are all about, we have a smaller trial and a major championship coming up this spring. Boon will be running his dog in one and then judging puppies; hopefully he can also run the derby stake after the championship.

 

Just give up discussing Ryan;
It's futile with some (insert brain explosion)

 

Just give up discussing Ryan;
It's futile with some (insert brain explosion)

This^^^

I am in complete disbelief, after all this time, that there are some who STILL fail to see through this guy...SMH.

 

Not sure exactly what you're saying here but it sounds like you are upset that the season is short is so short and are blaming the PGC.
Is the October season not included? Also it's very well known how scarce the population is. Obviously, they are trying to limit harvest while still providing the opportunity to hunt.
On top of that these season a set around the rifle season which has hard start dates, that's why they get squeezed.

PA hardly gives you enough time to develop a grouse dog. Eight days in December is pathetic. This is why I carry NY and WV licenses.

Again, sure can't argue ahaindt your point. However, it's not their job to provide you time to develop your tools, it is first and foremost to protect and preserve the resource and then to provide opportunity. You can develop your dog all year long otherwise.....

 

How about if we cut the archery season back to 4 weeks? No biological reason to hunt during the rut other than antler lust.

 

If the commission told me I couldn't hunt for a few years I honestly wouldn't care if it meant the birds would come back. **** I would even pay for a grouse stamp if that money went to more habitat projects and resources.

Once its gone, its never coming back. And even if the season would return, what are the grouse enthusiasts supposed to hunt during those years?

Creating grouse habitat brings money into the GC, a stamp would just be another way to waste money with no positive return for grouse populations.

 

There's no biological reason to bowhunt, or grouse hunt, at all for that matter. I don't think that's the hill either endeavor wants to die on.

 

Seems there are a lot more people that endorse a shortened season and even suspending it than there are people trying to preserve what we have and get back what we used to have. I'm willing to die on that hill to preserve grouse hunting in Pa for future. I only have 1 more goal in grouse hunting and i can achieve that in any state.

 

Maybe we could discuss facts?

Fact is this year's season was cut short but the PGC. That's being disingenuous and why half of us were confused by the initial rant. Across the board for all game, the season dates are affected more this year simply because of the calendar. But the grouse season was made shorter as a result of a new decision by the PGC

Another fact is the late (post-Christmas) season was curtailed (by the PGC.) Not going to go into detail about the reasons initially given (basically it was in the hopes of better recruitment of grouse, particularly WNV survivors, into the spring) There's some sort of formula for bringing it back (has to do with flush rates, brood surveys, etc.) Lost and some others believe it's never coming bsck because they'll come up with reasons not to. That's not without merit because I wonder about that too but there is at least some method "on the books" at least.

I don't know that elevation totally has nothing to do with it but what does have the most to do with it is absolutely Habitat, Habitat, Habitat. Even Lisa Williams, the driver of WNV theory, always said that. Pretty sure most of us with some knowledge of grouse issues agree on that, even if we disagree on some other things.

Personally, at the time and reasons given I wasn't against ending the post-Christmas season even though it was my favorite part of grouse hunting. Now I'm not as supportive of it as I was. Regardless there is absolutely no reason to close or further shorten the season, it would not positively affect numbers or save the future of grouse. It would however destroy grouse hunting and the most vocal group supporting grouse.

 

I'm not blaming the GC for the way the calendar dates fall, I'm saying they should have given grouse hunters another week/weekend at the beginning of the season to make up for that lost weekend. And lets not forget, we also lost a Saturday for the deer hunters. If you only get to hunt weekends, it gets hard to justify keeping and feeding a dog for 7 days to hunt.

LW was the biggest cheerleader for elevation to create habitat. Remember that useless map she came out with and was telling everyone to cut as much as they can above 2000 feet, even had it color coded based on elevation? I was the loudest person against that as I know plenty of areas well below her 1600 foot threshold. If fact what used to be my best area before it became a deer lease was at 1500 feet. Whatever happened to that idiot map? Havent heard anything about it since its initial rollout. Here is the link. GPAST map. I can tell you my best area this past year doesnt even make the color coding.

As for their initial formula, that has been thrown out the window. Part of the formula was WNV, well now that its basically non-existent, they had to come up with a new metric. That now metric is now comparing border counties in Pa compared to NY. The theory is with a shortened season, flush rates will be better in Pa, showing that not having a late season is benefitting grouse numbers in Pa. Now, I havent heard what counties they're using, but I'm betting they are using Warren, McKean, Potter. Those counties have the most cutting in Pa, and if you cross the border there is very little cutting and very little public land, so of course Pa numbers will be better. But go east to Bradford, Susquehanna, Wayne, and Pike counties, and everything changes drastically. Not much cutting in those counties. And everyone knows that the further east you go in NY, the better the grouse hunting becomes. Most of the famed grouse areas in NY where studies were done in years past are in that area of NY. Some of the initial grouse trials were held in that region. Grouse Ridge kennels where the NY championship is held is in that region. I saw numbers the first year of this metric, but havent seen anything since. LW is real good at hiding what she doesnt want anyone else to see.

LW has moved up the ladder, and hired an inexperienced lackey to carry on the scam she started with grouse hunters, and 90% of the people fell for it.

 

, I havent heard what counties they're using, but I'm betting they are using Warren, McKean, Potter. Those counties have the most cutting in Pa

I'm hunting warren, Forrest, elk, mckean. We've always had birds around, not "good" numbers but you'd flush a bakers dozen in a couple mile trek. Since 2001 there has been large tract clear cutting, and selective harvest every single year in my hunting areas. It wasn't until the past 3-5 seasons that we start good to really good grouse densities. Last October I flushed 24 birds over 600 yards while blood trailing a deer, while in the tree stand, you could hear almost constant drumming. I didn't get to hunt grouse this season because I suck at time management but had I taken my shotgun to camp in October, it would had been a slammer year. That particular area was a 7yr old 400acre clear cut, thick as all get out. So I can vouch for the amount of cutting that's going on in those counties and how much it benefits the birds, but it took along time for those benefits to create really good hunting.

 

I don't disagree with your idea about give more time earlier to make up for it but the calendar affected the start or stop of a number of seasons and the PGC just doesn't do that. Now the argument that with the loss of the post-Christmas season AND the loss of that Saturday after Thanksgiving, grouse hunters have had more taken from them than any others and the PGC could afford to give an earlier start in general each year is a good argument.

As for elevation, yeah I bought it and most of my best areas were above 2000' and my best area was about 2400'. But was that more because of that elevation and WNV theory or because those areas just happened to be where the best habitat was that I found? I've been starting to put much more stock into it being more habitat than elevation. Because I also had good spots well below that and they did seemingly drop off a ton for a couple years which made me believe the elevation theory more but then they came back, especially this year. Now, I've only been hunting grouse here for 10, 11 seasons but one thing I noticed in that decade that the last 5 years have seen a lot more cutting and habitat work then the first 5. I mean really noticeable (especially in my best spot but that also has the most contiguous public land and already had some of the best habitat.) I've put less and less stock lately into the WNV thing but if LW and her WNV alarm got the PGC to put more effort into cutting in the last 5 years or so than previous well I guess she accomplished some sort of good. I think you know I hunt the NE region for 95% of my grouse hunting, mainly Bradford, Susquehanna, Sullivan Carbon, Wyoming, Luzerne and Monroe. The last 5 years a number of the SGLs in those counties has seen a big jump in cutting. I'm hopeful because in a number of them there are still birds. And in my best spot where I've had the most flushes over the years and has thr most existing habitat, the cutting up there has really stepped up so the birds should really respond in beginning in about 5 more years or so.