[Flint Lock]

Read the article in this month's Game News.

Take special note to how the Penna. northern tier flushing rata use to align with the same data from southern New York and how Pennsylvania is now pulling further ahead of New York's grouse numbers.

The difference in the more recent year's flushing rates and Pennsylvania's grouse population faster and higher recovery rate might well be the result of Pennsylvania closed their late grouse seasons while New York didn't.

Dick Bodenhorn

I typically enjoy your posts and appreciate the perspective you bring, but I have come to realize there seems to be no limit to how far you will go to apologize for every move the PGC makes or doesn't.

The difference "might well be the result of Pennsylvania closed their late grouse seasons while New York didn't" is complete conjecture and you know it. So now it's not about WNV or habitat, we're back to over-harvest due to too much hunting being the problem. Unfortunately for that argument, it's been well covered that grouse hunting pressure is a far cry from what it ever was and that grouse hunting is compensatory. Oh, there's that word again that no one will mention or discuss in PA.

 

[R. S. B.]

I typically enjoy your posts and appreciate the perspective you bring, but I have come to realize there seems to be no limit to how far you will go to apologize for every move the PGC makes or doesn't.

Or maybe it is because I have an open minded. Perhaps it is because I spend countless hours reviewing information and data instead of just listening to hunter opinions. Perhaps it has to do with the fact I know darn good and well that the Game Commission is really very much interested in all wildlife species and doing the best they can with the resources available to care for all of the various wildlife species they are charged with managing.

The difference "might well be the result of Pennsylvania closed their late grouse seasons while New York didn't" is complete conjecture and you know it. So now it's not about WNV or habitat, we're back to over-harvest due to too much hunting being the problem. Unfortunately for that argument, it's been well covered that grouse hunting pressure is a far cry from what it ever was and that grouse hunting is compensatory. Oh, there's that word again that no one will mention or discuss in PA.

You, nor anyone else, can prove that late season grouse harvests are entirely compensatory and don't have a negative effect on the number of grouse alive to carry on the next spring nesting season. It appears that opinion is being called into question with mounting evidence to the contrary of the late season grouse harvests being entirely compensatory.

It is a matter that will require more study and evaluation to determine which opinion is correct. Right now, there is enough evidence mounting to bring the subject to the front burner for closer monitoring.

Go read the article in Game News.

Dick Bodenhorn

 

[Flint Lock]

You, nor anyone else, can prove that late season grouse harvests are entirely compensatory and don't have a negative effect on the number of grouse alive to carry on the next spring nesting season. It appears that opinion is being called into question with mounting evidence to the contrary of the late season grouse harvests being entirely compensatory.

What mounting evidence? Compensatory hunting has been well established and accepted by many other states and NGOs. But your open mind obviously won't consider it until it becomes the position of the PGC.

The trouble with data is often in the lens through which it is analyzed. Sometimes you need to use a little common sense. Even my elementary school aged kids can understand that if there are a lot less hunters now than years ago when there were a lot more grouse, too much hunting isn't a good explanation for the population decline. In fact, it might well be just the opposite case where there are less hunters because there are less grouse.

But no matter whether it was the chicken or the egg that came first, you just can't seem to handle any position, objective or subjective, that isn't in lock step with the PGC's current position.

 

[RyanR]

Read the article in this month's Game News.

Take special note to how the Penna. northern tier flushing rata use to align with the same data from southern New York and how Pennsylvania is now pulling further ahead of New York's grouse numbers.

The difference in the more recent year's flushing rates and Pennsylvania's grouse population faster and higher recovery rate might well be the result of Pennsylvania closed their late grouse seasons while New York didn't.

Dick Bodenhorn

That point has been discussed with other grouse hunters but what gets left out is taking into account that there's been a lot more habitat work (ie. Timber cutting) going on in PA's Northern Tier, particularly on state forest and private holdings here meanwhile I'm fairly certain NY's Southern Tier habitat has largely been aging out and not nearly as much habitat work being done. That to me is the bigger factor in the flush rate difference.

 

[R. S. B.]

What mounting evidence? Compensatory hunting has been well established and accepted by many other states and NGOs. But your open mind obviously won't consider it until it becomes the position of the PGC.

The trouble with data is often in the lens through which it is analyzed. Sometimes you need to use a little common sense. Even my elementary school aged kids can understand that if there are a lot less hunters now than years ago when there were a lot more grouse, too much hunting isn't a good explanation for the population decline. In fact, it might well be just the opposite case where there are less hunters because there are less grouse.

But no matter whether it was the chicken or the egg that came first, you just can't seem to handle any position, objective or subjective, that isn't in lock step with the PGC's current position.

What I saw through my entire career was hunters with all kinds of opinions that frequently were proven to be completely wrong and often completely counter to what the evidence of the wildlife management professionals were proving through sound research results.

Regardless of ANYTHING else, or anyone's opinions, what has been proven is that what has been happening in the northern tier of Pennsylvania, in season structure, habitat management or the combination of both, over the past few years is benefiting grouse populations more than what has been happening in New York state.

That FACT alone gives cause for pause and staying the course until more can be learned or positively proven one way or the other, whether hunters like it and it fits their opinions or not.

Dick Bodenhorn

 

[Flint Lock]

What I saw through my entire career was hunters with all kinds of opinions that frequently were proven to be completely wrong and often completely counter to what the evidence of the wildlife management professionals were proving through sound research results.

I will agree with you that hunters have lots of opinions and they're often wrong. But grouse hunting being compensatory is not just a hunter's opinion. It is well documented and accepted throughout the wildlife management community, outside of PA of course. What does seem to be opinion was the claim that the closed PA late season could very well be the reason why things are picking up in the northern tier.

 

[Penndraght]

I will agree with you that hunters have lots of opinions and they're often wrong. But grouse hunting being compensatory is not just a hunter's opinion. It is well documented and accepted throughout the wildlife management community, outside of PA of course. What does seem to be opinion was the claim that the closed PA late season could very well be the reason why things are picking up in the northern tier.

You and others like to throw around the word compensatory. Those studies were done when grouse numbers were good and they were well dispersed. NEITHER ONE APPLY TODAY. I’m curious have you actually hunted grouse in the last ten years. I have a lot. I have one area that I seen a nice rise in numbers last year. I guarantee you if I hunted that along with other hunters in a late season it would have affected numbers this year. Outside that area numbers were still not good with adequate habitat . In the last 15 years I’ve hunted clear cuts at the beginning of being prime to past prime in the northern part of the state and most times never seen the numbers increase. If that had been in the 70’s to the early 2000’s at some point they would have boomed. I do believe the PGC needs to address more cutting to create more habitat. I voice my opinion on this whenever I get the chance

 

[LostAgain]

Pa grouse hunting is dead....DEAD. Within the next 5 years the December season will be history with the addition of Sunday hunting, we cant put more pressure on the birds with the increase of hunting days.. I hope all the Aholes that voted to close the late season are happy now with their decision, I for one am glad its never coming back. The GC knows how gullible everyone is, they just stock more box chickens every year and have increased those winter stockings knowing it will keep 95% of the bird hunters happy. I'm glad I have my geezer license and never have to give any more money to the GC.

My goal now is to find a cabin or land in Michigan, come out October 1 and return to Pa November 15 when their dee season starts. Get in a few hunts with friends Thanksgiving week and call it a season. No WNV in Michigan and I'll get far more hunting than I could ever get in Pa.

 

[Penndraght]

At our age that’s as good as it gets right now. I’ll be a little further west in Minnesota. Have a few good friends there that I sold pups to in the past that guide me to good areas.

 

[Flint Lock]

You and others like to throw around the word compensatory. Those studies were done when grouse numbers were good and they were well dispersed. NEITHER ONE APPLY TODAY. I’m curious have you actually hunted grouse in the last ten years. I have a lot. I have one area that I seen a nice rise in numbers last year. I guarantee you if I hunted that along with other hunters in a late season it would have affected numbers this year. Outside that area numbers were still not good with adequate habitat . In the last 15 years I’ve hunted clear cuts at the beginning of being prime to past prime in the northern part of the state and most times never seen the numbers increase. If that had been in the 70’s to the early 2000’s at some point they would have boomed. I do believe the PGC needs to address more cutting to create more habitat. I voice my opinion on this whenever I get the chance

Sure, if you hunt any locale too hard you can ruin it, just like you can over fish a hole or shoot all the deer on a farm. We’re talking statewide big picture here, not whether someone over hunts a cover. I spend plenty of time hunting and yet you do not hear me complaining that I can’t find grouse, even in the SE. My beef is the lost opportunity.

Even if hunting harvest did play a significant role, there are other ways to manage that such as reducing bag limits. But I guess all those other states and authorities on wildlife management don’t know what they’re talking about either when they throw around the ‘c’ word.

 

[LostAgain]

At our age that’s as good as it gets right now. I’ll be a little further west in Minnesota. Have a few good friends there that I sold pups to in the past that guide me to good areas.

Minnesota has great grouse hunting, probably the best state right now. But after 4 weeks of trials, i dont feel like driving 12 hours west to hunt. IMO, the best grouse hunting is in November; most hunters are gone and the grouse have been pushed out of the aspen into the scrub oak where they are easier to hunt. Plus having a place in michigan, i can come out in July to train dogs and again later on august to work with pros. And their season is open until january 1.

 

[LostAgain]

If hunting the late season with very llimited participation, will destroy the grouse population, then what happened to all the wild pheasants in the WPRAs with no hunting?

 

[Penndraght]

If hunting the late season with very llimited participation, will destroy the grouse population, then what happened to all the wild pheasants in the WPRAs with no hunting?

Minnesota just closed part of the state for sharptails due to low numbers. It happens. All states will do it if they feel it necessary .

 

[LostAgain]

Be careful what you wish for, 2/3 of Pa could easily be closed to grouse hunting based on reported flush rates. When that happens no one will care anymore.

 

[Penndraght]

Be careful what you wish for, 2/3 of Pa could easily be closed to grouse hunting based on reported flush rates. When that happens no one will care anymore.

Not wishing just making a point that states you put on a pedestal aren’t much different than PA. When a problem arises they deal with.

 

[Springer Rage]

I don't really have an opinion on the late season closure. Whether it is open or closed, the only response to the grouse decline that is likely to make a difference is habitat improvement. That is what I care about.

 

[boon hogganbeck]

Habitat is the only answer.

Closure will only hurt. You’ll lose a generation of grouse hunters, and no one will care enough to advocate for them, and the PGC will tell us all to be grateful for dumb box chickens.

I am bullish for the future of PA grouse. DCNR is salvage cutting 1,600 acres in my area this year. Things are markedly better than when I moved here & will improve.

 

[Flint Lock]

Closure will only hurt. You’ll lose a generation of grouse hunters, and no one will care enough to advocate for them, and the PGC will tell us all to be grateful for dumb box chickens.

100% right.

Finally got time to read the Game News article and couldn't help but notice a few things:

1) "...However, if a grouse has already survived [the early season] into January, it only has to survive a few more months to breed."

I would need to see some good hard data to be convinced of that. This must be the big rejoinder to compensatory harvest. Just survive a few more months, eh? Those happen to be the hardest months to survive in the wild, and the couple of extra weeks of grouse season don't shorten "a few months" by much. Sounds like wishful thinking to me that a bird that isn't shot by Christmas has a much higher chance of making it to spring.

2) The main article highlights the fact that the rate of old timers getting out of grouse hunting outpaces new hunters and how there are many less hunters today than in years gone by, and also points out that experienced cooperators typically average less than 2 birds harvested per year. As I've said before, with so few hunters and birds being harvested in recent times, the math just doesn't work for the idea that late season hunting has a significant impact on the grouse population beyond natural factors.

3) The comparison to NY is more conjecture and smacks of cherry picking data, if there is much data. Comparing flush rates from two different states without a word about comparing quality of habitat is either very naive or intellectually dishonest.

Bottom line, as most of us know, ample food and cover is key to any wildlife species being able to weather disease, predation, and hunting pressure. If PGC doesn't figure out a way to turn around the decline in grouse hunter numbers, that's just as bad for the future of grouse numbers as anything else discussed. PGC has gone to great lengths to recruit new hunters in many other areas: expanded big game seasons, Sunday hunting, etc. All of this is aimed at providing more opportunity to entice new hunters. Yet with grouse, the answer seems to be reducing opportunity and then fish for reasoning that loosely supports the reduction, if at all. How that will effectively lead to more grouse hunters and active cooperators in the future is anyone's guess.

 

[LostAgain]

Fresh owl kill today. If predators can find grouse this easily in August, imagine how easily the can find them January thru April. Yet we have stupid biologists and gullible followers that think they'll all survive to breed in late April.

 

[timberdoodle]

snow roost will save them