[Big Buck 173 B&C]

Hello, new to this forum but not to deer hunting (40 years and reloading for 30 years) and am a retired explosives specialist so I have a fair understanding of ballistics and such...

I grew up deer hunting in PA when if you did not shoot a 30 caliber you could be evicted from the state or at least looked at with great suspicion. I have over the years and from moving around the country and living in different areas been exposed to different hunting conditions and ideas.
Here based upon my own educational back round, work experience and first hand experience are my ideas. I now live in KS where 400 plus yards could be a chip shot and our deer are slightly bigger on average than most areas. I have seen does field dress over 200 lbs on scales run by biologist.

OK enough babble, a huge buck will have an 18 inch thick chest and 14-15 inches more the norm. Deer are not thick skinned or heavy boned. So if you are doing mostly chest shots I would bet 90% of deer hunters aim here. You need a bullet that starts to expand within 2-3 inches of penetration and dumps as much energy as possible quickly.

With this knowledge I now shoot 6.5 mm bullets either 100 to 120 grains. I have never had a deer take a step when shot from 25 to 400 plus yards and have killed @ 30 deer with these bullets. I use Nostler BT or Sierra pro hunters. I know a lot of people like big and slow or want a good blood trail. My thought, one DRT no need for blood trail, two if you bullet goes clear through how much energy did it not deliver to the deer?? remember it its still going it is using energy.
Some people complain about meat damage with fast smaller bullets true when I field dress them they look like soup inside with the biggest lung piece about the size of a silver dollar. Heart gone....But deer right there. LOL

You could argue big and fast but with recoil and it being a whitetail not an Elk or Moose I don't see the need to get bruised up plus they are expensive to shoot and reload compared to other two areas.

Just curouis what your thought are????

 

[6-DASHER]

You need look no further than the old time tested Nosler Partitions or Barnes X-bullets, they both have stood the test of time and are all you'll ever need for anything you care to harvest in Pennsylvania !

 

[Pahack]

You need look no further than the old time tested Nosler Partitions or Barnes X-bullets, they both have stood the test of time and are all you'll ever need for anything you care to harvest in Pennsylvania !

^^^^ best answer... or Hornady SST if you want to save a few bucks.

 

[willyp]

I am no authority,but i use what works for me and my hunting area.
I use Sierra Pro Hunters in my 243,100 grain bullets and 150s in my 30 caliper guns.
I have found,over the years,that i don't have to push these bullets to the Max for them to do their job on a deer.
Iv'e used all the other brands,over 50 years,and won't say one is better than another,just what i like.
As Big Buck has said,i have made long shots and close ones.

 

[WOL]

I like a bullet that will work in the expected situation and also handle an unexpected situation. If the bullet hits bone (shoulder) or you have a hard quarteting-to angle, I want that bullet to be able to penetrate and stay together. I also want good and quick expansion. That's why I go with the Barnes X bullet.

DRT doesn't always happen and no exit wound or blood trail is not optimum.

if you bullet goes clear through how much energy did it not deliver to the deer?? remember it its still going it is using energy.

The bullet that failed to exit actually ran out of energy before it made it through the deer. The bullet that expands and still exits.....that bullet had plenty of energy to spare. The bullet that couldn't make it through did not leave more energy. I might have even left less. It simply ran out of steam.

 

[Big Buck 173 B&C]

WOL First all the bullets I mentioned almost always exit I guess I did not state that right. However, your statement defies physics. If both bullets weigh the same are at the same speed they are going to deliver the same energy. Lets say 2,000 pounds of energy. If one did not exit it DID deliever all 2000 FPE to the target. It did not just disappear. The other bullet that exited did not deliver all 2000 because it was still moving.

6-Dasher both bullets you mention are excellent Elk rounds the particion bullet I know from working with those companies and from tons of experiments done with my work was not designed for whitetail deer. In 15 inches it probably will not reach maximum expashion until about 12 inches. THus almost out the other side of the deer, leaving about 3/4 of you target not getting maximum damage. That just is the fact. I know alot of people like them but the truth is they were designed for other animals. I have done boo-koo studies and experiments for law enforcement agencies on the effects of bullets on targets.
The hornady SST is very similar to both the bullets I mentioned in performance.
Bullets are kind of like trucks I guess everyone has an opinion on what they like. I have just based mine off of time in the lab, range and watching them work. I can tell you that the right bullet makes a huge difference. You should be getting a lot more DRT if your shooting the right one.

 

[WOL]

Why didn't the other bullet exit, if everything else is the same? I guess I am mistaking the argument over the power of the cartridge being too fast to leave energy in the target. Which is a different argument. That is the argument that would conclude that a 30-30 dumps more energy than a 300 Mag because it leaves all its energy in the deer. My mistake. We are talking about the same bullet weight, diameter and velocity.

I will agree that a faster expanding bullet will leave more energy in the deer than a FMJ of everything else is the same. But, not being able to exit is a failure on some level. How do you determine at what point the bullet should fail? Right under the hide on a broadside shot could turn into subpar penetration on a quartering-to angle.

That's why I want controlled expansion bullets. They quickly expand to dump energy and make a large wound channel. But they will continue to create that wound channel all the way through to the other side.

 

[RobOz]

Another thread on how to complicate killing a white tail deer

 

[WOL]

Another thread on how to complicate killing a white tail deer

It makes good banter. And, if you ever trailed a deer for a long distance, you probably had a lot of ifs and whys going through your head.

 

[Big Buck 173 B&C]

Good one ROBOZ, LOL got to do something on slow days. WOL were on same sheet of music, sorry but being old my typing skills are not that good. The most important thing is to be confident in what you are shooting. Bullets have come along way in 50 years. Especially for the smaller faster bullets. You have a lot less bullet failure now than you did back in the day. I can remember people talking about how bullets in fast small guns would fail. If nothing else it was great stories for a young boy to listen too.

 

[RobOz]

Another thread on how to complicate killing a white tail deer

It makes good banter. And, if you ever trailed a deer for a long distance, you probably had a lot of ifs and whys going through your head.

Knocking on wood...never lost a deer and only had to track one. Used original X's, TSX's, Corelokts, Interlocks, BT's, Prohunters and a bunch I'm forgetting. They all killed to a level of deadness that was satisfactory to my non scientific study of deadness

It does make good banter among us gunny types.

 

[JasonN]

They all killed to a level of deadness that was satisfactory to my non scientific study of deadness

That's simply beautiful!

 

[mfuff]

I said it a hundred times before and ill say it a hundred more.
"Energy" allows the bullet to do the job it was designed to do.
50ftlbs, 300ftlbs, 1000ftlbs, 2000ftlbs of energy does not magically lift animals off their feet, fling them in the opposite direction, or incapacitate them by some magical force. The damage is done by the bullet or broadhead that used the energy to allow them work as designed is what kills animals.
It does not matter one iota if a bullet stops under the hide on the far side or blows through and into the dirt beyond. It is the damage done to bones, blood vessels, arteries and vitals along the way that kills the animal. An xray would show that at least all the same damage occured along the path of each. Merely staying inside an animal does not magically impart a force that aides in additional killing powers.

Take a log that is 2ft high and 18" in diameter and shoot it with your favorite gun, caliber, bullet. The log might weigh 25lbs and if you are lucky the log MAY tip over but most likely it wont budge. Take a 5 gal bucket full of dirt or sand which might weigh 75lbs and shoot it. It will stop any hunting bullet out there and at 10yards you MIGHT notice it moved a half inch on the board you set it on. 1000, 2000, 4000 ft lbs should have sent that thing end over end. It didnt. It wont. What is it gonna do to a deer that a bullet that has passed through has not already done on it's way through???

If you want to get a bullet through that bucket of dirt you will have to get a bullet designed to penetrate and drive it at enough velocity so that the energy created allows that bullet drive it through the other side.
If you want that bucket to flip end over end. You have to hit it with a projectile that has a large enough surface area, at an increased velocity which creates enough energy to shove that bucket over.
Nobody hunts with anything that large.
A 3006 wont do it.
A 300 mag wont do it.
A 458 win mag wont do it.
They all throw a relatively small diameter projectile at high velocity that creates a lot of energy but that energy is confined to a small point.

Yet, take a step back from the bucket, wind up and punch it straight on and you will flip it over. You dont have 1500 to 4000ft lbs of energy like those bullets but you will knock it over.
Punch a deer in the ribs and it will kick you in the head then trot off. Punch it in the ribs with the front of a pickup truck going 60mph and then we can start to see what part energy plays.

 

[tdd]

mfuff, you wrote my thoughts out for me.


Mighty considerate of you!

 

[mfuff]

mfuff, you wrote my thoughts out for me.


Mighty considerate of you!

The only reason my nickname on this site is not "bullethead" is because many years ago I joined this site under that name and lost my password and info from a computer crash. In the mean time I changed internet providers so I no longer had a valid email address to access a password recovery.
I shoot a LOT. I shoot at a lot of materials. I want to see what bullets, pellets, shot etc will and will not do.
I've learned a lot simply by doing it.

I suspect experience has played a role in your conclusions also.
Cheers

 

[6-DASHER]

Keep it simple, I used to have bullets of all weights from all manufacturers...some I only used 10 bullets from, if testing to see groups..about drove me crazy, 20 different powders, 10 different bullet manufacturers, primers by at least 5 companies, lots of fun but in time most stuff just sat there killing nothing but time.,now a days, simple cartridge with brass in abundance, bullets limited to only partitions and tsx's...everything runs off of h-4350 with rem 9 12 primers, life is easier...bench is cleaner with lots of room.

 

[.257]

Well dead is dead but don't some bullets just seem to kill quicker than others....I have a .270 that shoots Win. 150 gr. powerpoints sub-MOA but doesn't seem to put a well hit deer down as quickly as a .243 I have shooting 95 gr. SST's and my .257 Bob shooting 110 gr. Accubonds has accounted for some of the quickest kills ever more so than my .300 Mag with 180 gr. Bear claws......I think each shot is unique and each deer is unique but I do say some bullet/gun combinations just seem to work where others that should be more impressive just aren't

 

[tdd]

What I have seen/read/heard as the justification for bullets not exiting is that some feel the bullet should "grenade" inside the animal, causing multiple secondary wound channels.

That's all well and good until the "detonation" occurs too early and doesn't reach the important stuff. Then you have a mess on your hands.

I want a wound channel, with two holes to leak blood onto the ground. My ideal bullet performance....MY own opinion here.... is that it goes in and out, leaves about a quarter- to half-dollar sized exit, and a massive wound channel in between.

To me, that's ideal.

I also tend to be a shoulder shooter. I prefer to lose shoulders and know I have the animal down and out fast than shoot lungs and have a track job. I'm pretty good tracker, but I much prefer to just walk up to the animal piled up where it stood when I shot it.

I've yet to see one take off when shot through the tops of the shoulders. I've seen lots of weird stuff when animals are shot, but a shot through the tops of the shoulders has, so far, resulted in bang-flop every time.

But the bullet's gotta get through the bone and into the good stuff.

 

[Big Buck 173 B&C]

Well was actually bored when I posted this and setting here today after having a tooth cut out this morning I realized I did not word things the best. I have never had a bullet not exit. I was merely meaning to say how much energy is lost by it going out the other side of the animal?

I have never had a bullet no matter how fast not penetrate any bone on a whitetail. My 6.5/06 with a 26 inch barrel can and does shoot a 100 grain bullet over 3400 FPS. Trust me it penetrates clear through and is devastating to everything in between. I shot a buck in MO at 400 yards hit it high in shoulders DRT when field dressed lung soup and heart was cut in half. Shot a PA buck in neck at 75 yards put a 3 inch hole through neck. (some older guys asked me how far he ran I said did not run DRT) They were amazed with wound channel. Same guys told me day before would not help track deer when little bullet just wounded them. LOL
I would say 50 years ago that was a problem. Not today. Mostly just like hearing everyones experiences.
The only deer I have ever tracked was with factory bullets like core-locks or power points which in reality are designed for much larger animals. The wound channel is not close to bullets designed for smaller framed animals like whitetail. Conversely I would not what to shoot an Elk with a 100 Grain BT either.
My goal is to not have to track the deer especially in PA when I hunt there and every 500 yards is another hunter or here in KS were he can lay down in a 300 acre field of grass and weeds up to your head and can be almost impossible to find and almost never snow. But of course we are all looking for that magic bullet aren't we? LOL

Here is a great example of poor bullet performance or was it?? As a kid in Beaver county when you had the two day doe season I once shot a doe and DRT. When I went over to her (Shacking like a leaf) she was covered in wood splinters. The bullet shot from my .308 Rem 788 had gone through a 4 inch crab apple tree and killed her dead. LOL My dad made me go back and cut that section of tree out. He said you have to be the luckest kid on earth. LOL

And as someone said how dead is dead? I enjoy reading everyones comments and experiences thank you.

 

[mfuff]

A lot of times I think too heavy for caliber of a bullet is used. It doesn't open up well enough on shots where not a lot of meat or bone is hit and they almost pencil right through. The deer is dead but they make it a little farther in the 3 more seconds they lived.
For a .270 the 150gr bullet is near the equivalent of a 180gr .30 cal projectile.
Using a bullet like a ballistic tip may cause a more violent expansion than the Power Point. Where as the same Power Point bullet in a 130gr may do what you want perfectly.
Sectional density, bullet construction, bullet weight, bullet design all play a part.

Whitetails are not tough to shoot through. If you can find a bullet that expands well yet holds together to make an exit buy a bunch because they will kill a lot of deer.