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R. S. B. said:
..In fact on many of the routes where deer were being fed I found more dead at the end of the winter than I had seen as hunter harvests within the same areas the previous fall.....
and you came to the conclusion that the cause was indeed supplemental feed how? how did you rule out other factors such as increased predation due to the localized food source, disease, etc?
 

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R. S. B. said:
Really! Aren’t you one of the once that is constantly complaining about your areas not having as many deer as there had once been?
sure, due to HR. if you have studies proving that supplemental feeding in 2G has hampered reproduction on any grande scale, feel free to point me in that direction!
 

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R. S. B. said:
All of those dead deer were checked to determine the color of the bone marrow, which shows whether the deer died of malnutrition. Many of those deer died of malnutrition with stomachs packed so full of corn they couldn’t have eaten any more. And, predation doesn’t cause deer to die of malnutrition even though the predators certainly did scavenge on those deer that died of malnutrition.

The FACT is ALL of the evidence proves that winter-feeding of deer is harmful to deer yet people still insist on doing it.

Dick Bodenhorn
Youve posted the same on this subject in the past. And I wont discount your findings. But ive always been intrigued by things such as this. One study in particular stated deer were malnourished not because of the supplemental feed, but because of lack of browse. The supplemental feed caused the deer to yard up unnaturally, which caused an over browsing issue. The deer only went to the supplemental feed when starvation took hold, which was too late.

Anyhow, as I said before, this has been going on forever up there. Where are the huge kills due to supplemental feeding? Why hasnt the PGC put their foot down? I dont see the problem. Sorry?
 

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R. S. B. said:
How many studies and articles on the harmful affects of feeding deer do you want? These many not be specific to unit 2G but surely you are intelligent enough to realize the 2G deer aren’t some superior species to all the other deer around across their range, aren’t you?
Im hard headed Dick. Sorry? When I start finding dead deer in the vicinity of these feeders, which hasnt happened in all the years ive been around the area, ill grab my camera and look you up. We will document the whole deal and run to Harrisburg with our findings. Deal?
 

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R. S. B. said:
pahick said:
R. S. B. said:
How many studies and articles on the harmful affects of feeding deer do you want? These many not be specific to unit 2G but surely you are intelligent enough to realize the 2G deer aren’t some superior species to all the other deer around across their range, aren’t you?
Im hard headed Dick. Sorry? When I start finding dead deer in the vicinity of these feeders, which hasnt happened in all the years ive been around the area, ill grab my camera and look you up. We will document the whole deal and run to Harrisburg with our findings. Deal?
So in other words you are admitting that you are one the people in our society that has NO ABILITY to learn from anything other than what you personally see and feel?

And some people wonder why and what has gone wrong with so many things today. Oh Boy!

Dick Bodenhorn
No, what I am saying is read and come to your own conclusion instead of believing everything some nit wit tells you. I read what you had to say, I read studies when we talked about this subject ages ago. Has something changed? No, youre still telling your story, posting studies, and im choosing to not agree. I happen to think that THIS PARTICULAR PRACTICE in Cross Fork has had no negative effect on the deer population.

Maybe we should forward all these studies and your personal findings to the farmers across the nation. They hay and feed they distribute is killing off all the deer.
 

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John S said:
Amazing, your opinion has no basis in fact, just anecdotal observation yet you discount someone with 3 decades of experience on wildlive management and who lived it every day. BTW, hay is not corn.
John, I could care less how much experience Dick has. Do I agree with some of his posts and studies he produces? Sure. Do I think supplemental feeding to be an issue? It can be. From the studies I read awhile back, and we are talking 10 yrs or more, supplemental feeding can have a HUGE impact on game animals. If I can remember right, supplemental feeding almost destroyed a local turkey population in a couple year period. Ive read studies that showed deer wouldnt touch supplemental feed until starvation set it, and ive read just the opposite, that deer would replace natural browse with the feed. Other studies that showed enzyme and micro organism changes in the digestive tract, and others that didnt. How corn is bad for wild ruminants but ok for domestics. Which is intriguing how cows, goats, and others thrive on supplemental feed such as corn, but can be deadly in deer. Theres a lot of information out there, and I made my decision long ago. Do I respect Dick? Sure, he has a lot of information. But he is not the be all end all on any topic. Step out of your little world some day and you may see there is a lot of information out there. It doesnt all come from St Marys.
 

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Its not my facts John. As I said, ive read up on this way too many times to just accept any old answer. Deer in agricultural areas do just fine with corn. So tell me, whats the biological difference between deer in ag areas and big woods. How do deer in ag areas have the correct micro organism make up to digest corn and big woods deer dont? It cant be the shock of going from one food type to the next, as food sources in ag areas change at the drop of a hat with harvests.

Forget all that. Prove to me the feeding done by the Cross Fork Club has had a negative effect over the last couple decades and ill jump on your little bandwagon.
 

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BcozHunter said:
pahick said:
R. S. B. said:
All of those dead deer were checked to determine the color of the bone marrow, which shows whether the deer died of malnutrition. Many of those deer died of malnutrition with stomachs packed so full of corn they couldn’t have eaten any more. And, predation doesn’t cause deer to die of malnutrition even though the predators certainly did scavenge on those deer that died of malnutrition.

The FACT is ALL of the evidence proves that winter-feeding of deer is harmful to deer yet people still insist on doing it.

Dick Bodenhorn
Youve posted the same on this subject in the past. And I wont discount your findings. But ive always been intrigued by things such as this. One study in particular stated deer were malnourished not because of the supplemental feed, but because of lack of browse. The supplemental feed caused the deer to yard up unnaturally, which caused an over browsing issue. The deer only went to the supplemental feed when starvation took hold, which was too late.
Anyhow, as I said before, this has been going on forever up there. Where are the huge kills due to supplemental feeding? Why hasnt the PGC put their foot down? I dont see the problem. Sorry?

You stated part of the problem, but don't see it?
I do see it. As I said, it can be a problem. But that doesnt always happen. Matter of fact, there are some years, the feeders filled by the Cross Fork gang arent touched at all. Which some studies have pointed to, some studies deer didnt touch the supplemental feed. This subject isnt all black and white.

TimberPro said:
You are wasting your time Dick and John.. It has been my experience that they live to tell you you are wrong.Makes them feel powerful. They have seen things with thier own eyes. The heck with the studies. Emperical facts derived from 30 years of study mean nothing. Thier feelings trump all.Those guys that do the studies, as well as the practicing professionals all have an agenda. And its not thiers. So you are wrong. And the horse you rode in on.....
30 yrs, yup thats a LONG time. Thats about how old some of the studies were that I read which stated supplemental feeding was a waste of money, but inconclusive as to how harmful, if at all, it can or cannot be to wildlife. Studies. Not my opinion. Sorry to burst your bubble. If you want to believe Dicks "study" on bone marrow, have at it. I choose to believe its much more complicated than joe blow putting out some feed during the winter.
 

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John S said:
I really don't care if agrees at this point! This isn't a discussion as to if feeding corn to deer can kill them, that is a given. All I see is rationalization in order to justify doing something that can be detrimental to deer in order to justify feeding deer for the person feeding them, not for the deer.
John, dont give them impression that feeding deer corn is positively going to kill them. The fact is, it may or may not. It may, in fact, be a great benefit. Too many variables to say yea or nay.

Btw, this is posted in Michigan DNR website under Malnutrition and Starvation..

Prevention

Supplemental feeding of starving wildlife is an alternative to allowing wildlife species to die. This, however, involves a philosophical question of maintaining wildlife populations at a level above their normal carrying capacity, interfering with nature's checks and balances on populations and encouraging transmission of diseases (bovine tuberculosis). It may also be cost prohibitive. If a feeding program is to be used to maintain a high plane of nutrition it needs to be started early in the winter, continued throughout, and a surplus of food must be provided. If food is not provided (especially in ruminants) until malnutrition is in its advanced stages, the animal will probably die anyway. This is because once food is made available, the ruminant must be able to live in a negative energy balance for up to 2 weeks, before its digestive tract can adjust to the new diet and change to a positive energy balance. Generally, starved ruminants do not eat large quantities of food when sudden access to unlimited food occurs. However, due to an altered microbial population in the stomachs, it is possible to observe mortality in deer when shelled corn is overeaten. The reason for this is that lactic acid from the fermentation of starch accumulates to toxic levels. High quality palatable feed is essential in a feeding program: feed which contains readily available carbohydrates, roughage, minerals, and vitamins. Pelleted formulated feeds are the best ration that can be provided for ruminants. Elk can survive on high quality second or third cutting alfalfa but deer have greater difficulty in obtaining adequate energy from roughages like this that are high in fiber. If baled hay is all that is provided for deer, it must be high quality alfalfa fed at a level where the deer do not have to consume anything but the leaves and small stems.

Supplemental feeding of birds is usually only cone for songbirds but does occur with waterfowl species and turkeys under certain circumstances. The feeding of waterfowl during the winter may encourage alterations of normal migration patterns and possibly be of disease importance. Avian species respond faster to the providing of food once physical condition has been affected. Consequently, if the necessity arises, supplemental feeding can be started at anytime and probably be successful.

You may not care John, but I do. Then again, I know how you are by now. If the click says its so, its so. Have a good evening John!
 

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HomeintheWoods said:
Down in the habitat forum we had a discussion on this very topic. Of course the folks from Cross Creek and Pahick don't read anything about habitat management believing instead that feeding corn is the only habitat management practice needed.
If only they would gather up all their chainsaws and go cut some low value trees like maple, poorly formed ash, cherry, aspen regen cuts, etc. That would help this year and for years to come. It would minimize risk of spreading disease. It would reduce the concentration of deer that make them easy prey for predators. It would minimize the negative impact the concentrations have on the vegatation surrounding the feeding sites. And the list goes on ...
Deer should be eating browse in the winter. If you want to help them make some noise with a chainsaw!
I guess you never been near Cross Fork. You dont have to go far to get into a cut. Theres a lot of logging going on in the area.
 
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