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Discussion Starter #1
2000 on a rifle that shoots under 1" when you can get a rifle for $350-$650 that shoots the same if not better. I hear guys talking all the time about their $2000 rifles that will shoot less than a 1 inch group. I had the same caliber at the range as a guy with that crazy expensive rifle and shot clover leaves all day. I had nothing fancy right out of the box store Howa 270 using remington factory ammo and a swift 3-9x40. The otherguy shot a special order Mcmillan legacy rifle.

How many of you would spend that type of money to achieve 3/4 to 1 inch moa 5 shot group. The bolts felt about the same. His was in fiberglass stock and mine was a hogue. the legacy also had a leupy 3-9x40 on it.

Is it really worth it? Or is it just about a status symbol?
 

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Status only....or too much money. My $300 Savage shoot's 1" and under most days and weights less than 7 pounds. Last I checked deers vitals were larger than that
 

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It's not all about sub MOA. Savage's and Marlins will shoot with anything out there but sometimes a guy just wants a quality piece of finely crafted steel and wood.
 

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Why doesn't everyone drive Kia's and just wear Walmart's chineese sneakers?

Afterall, do you really get what you pay for when you venture out of the bottom of the barrel? LOL
 

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Why would anyone spend $1,500 for a semi custom long rifle when they can shoot a $300 Spanish POS.

Actually, most modern factory guns can do an admirable job. A few guns have better fit and finish, some actually do shoot better. I have a muzzleloader that I have shot sub MOA groups with. Why would I want a cartridge gun?


It is part also, whether your gun, car, etc was made on Monday or Wednesday. With some manufacturers, getting one that shoots that well may take examining and shooting 3 rifles. Some guarantee that each rifle will do that well. Around 1920, Harry Pope guaranteed his guns could shoot 2.5 inch ten shot groups at 200 yards. How many manufacturers would do that today?

I shot Mossberg Target rifle in college. I didd right well with it, but the action was rough and the trigger was stiff. A Winchchester model 52, would have been finished better from the start. SAME FOR AN Anschutz. I could not afford either of those. I probably would have scored a few points better in a season with a better finished gun. Would that have moved me a place or two higher in the league? probably. My last season, i was able to purchase a good used Remington model 37. At the end of the season, I finished much higher in the league standings.

A deer isn't going to know the difference. MOA really only counts from the bench. How many folks can shoot that well offhand under field conditions? Does the gun fit better, is it set up better for snap shots in the field. Then maybe it is worth it.
 

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moosehunter said:
It's not all about sub MOA. Savage's and Marlins will shoot with anything out there but sometimes a guy just wants a quality piece of finely crafted steel and wood.
If I were to take a nice piece of wood afield it wouldn't be that way very long.
 

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First I think 2000 is really light for a custom, many completed are going in the 4 to 8 range. Custom is about being custom. You spec out exactly what you want much the same as building a custom house or customizing a motorcycle. Action type, barrel length, barrel taper, twist, maybe barrel maker, free float or full length bed, throat length, metal finish, fluting or not, fluting on bolt or not, length of pull, trigger maker, stock type, finish on stock. etc, etc, etc. Some build their own and some have others do it. The money people spend on anything is all relative to their resources, priorities, and preferences.
 

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Stetam said:
moosehunter said:
It's not all about sub MOA. Savage's and Marlins will shoot with anything out there but sometimes a guy just wants a quality piece of finely crafted steel and wood.
If I were to take a nice piece of wood afield it wouldn't be that way very long.

Nothing wrong with that either. Stocks can be refinished.
 

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I hope nobody starts a thread on why do guys shoot Mossbergs,Rough Riders and NEF handi rifles? oops did I say that out loud? What does it really matter to anyone but the buyer?
here is a pic of my $2800 christensen arms carbon one with $600 5-20x40 Redfield Tx27and $50 leupold mounts it has a $140 timney trigger.


IMO pointless thread sorry
 

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Maybe this will earn me contempt by some, but one of my unfulfilled dreams has been to own a rifle made by Kenny Jarrett. He used to call them "beanfield rifles," because with one of them, a shot at a whitetail at the other end of a 200 acre beanfiels is doable. I had the privilege of shooting one several years ago, and they do what he says they will do. The only reason I don't own one yet is that there was always some hunting trip or another where the money got spent. It is still a dream of mine, and when you look at the prices, you will probably think I'm crazy. Heck, my W 1 FE unit would agree with you.


Jarrett Rifles website

Of course, the Jarret rifles might be a touch pricey for some people's taste, so for comparison, here is Banzner's website:
Mark Banzner's custom rifles

Now, after seeing that, does that Weatherby Lazermark seem all that expensive?
 

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I pretty much got by all these years on stock rifles with a few tweaks (trigger, bedding, ect). But I do put some emphasis on optics and lean towards Leupold stuff. They have withstood the abuse I give them. My rifles most times are bouncing around airplanes, backs of pick-ups, and scaboards on a horse or buggy. I have no reservations about bolting a $500 - $700 scope onto a $100 used rifle.
 

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First off there is way too much emphasis put on accuracy. And almost zero emphasis put on the other features that a fine rifle has.

Shooting small groups at 100 yards is also a ZERO indication of how accurate a rifle is. If you want to impress me with how accurate your rifle is then show me a 300 or 500 yard group from your rifle, or 800 or 1,000 yard group. Then I will be impressed.

So first off your $300 or $400 or $600 rifle is not capable of accuracy at those long ranges. Accuracy defined as sub. MOA. So the first thing is that your rifle is not capable of that accuracy.

Now when you want long range accuracy you need to think completely differently.

Second, most custom rifles are built to be used for several lives, not just yours. And they are built to shoot 1,000's of rounds. Not the 20 or so that 95% of the shooters take in any one year.

Third a custom rifle is built to with stand a beating, and in very inclimate regions. Your $500 Savage AccuTrigger would freeze up in a second in the Tundra.

In other words if you showed up for a Brown Bear hunt in Alaska with a Stevens 200 rifle, I am pretty sure the guide would tell you to stay in the plane. Strictly from a reliability stand point.

Even the customs made from wood-if you look closely, a custom smith is more concerned about the strength of the wood in certain areas, more than he is concerned about how "pretty" the wood is.

So there is no doubt that your $400 rifle will work effectively for a guy who spends a few days a year in the deer woods of PA, and he shoots 20 to 100 shells a year.

But for a person who flies to several different states to hunt, and to Africa or other places, that hunter has to depend 100% on his firearm to function properly under any field condition. And no matter how heavy recoiling the rifle is. And if he is a target shooter then he has to depend on it to last for thousands of shots.

Those are the real reasons for a SHOOTER or HUNTER to own a custom rifle.

Not to mention the fact that you are buying a rifle that FITS you the way a rifle should. That the comb is the proper height, and the stock is of proper length for you.

I could go on for a lot longer. But if this is not enough to convince you then I would be wasting the band width. Tom.

Not to mention pride of ownership!!
 

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Hodgen said:
I pretty much got by all these years on stock rifles with a few tweaks (trigger, bedding, ect). But I do put some emphasis on optics and lean towards Leupold stuff. They have withstood the abuse I give them. My rifles most times are bouncing around airplanes, backs of pick-ups, and scaboards on a horse or buggy. I have no reservations about bolting a $500 - $700 scope onto a $100 used rifle.

Horse and buggy? And I didn't even know you were Amish.
 

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HOGGHEAD said:
First off there is way too much emphasis put on accuracy. And almost zero emphasis put on the other features that a fine rifle has.

Shooting small groups at 100 yards is also a ZERO indication of how accurate a rifle is. If you want to impress me with how accurate your rifle is then show me a 300 or 500 yard group from your rifle, or 800 or 1,000 yard group. Then I will be impressed.

So first off your $300 or $400 or $600 rifle is not capable of accuracy at those long ranges. Accuracy defined as sub. MOA. So the first thing is that your rifle is not capable of that accuracy.

Now when you want long range accuracy you need to think completely differently.

Second, most custom rifles are built to be used for several lives, not just yours. And they are built to shoot 1,000's of rounds. Not the 20 or so that 95% of the shooters take in any one year.

Third a custom rifle is built to with stand a beating, and in very inclimate regions. Your $500 Savage AccuTrigger would freeze up in a second in the Tundra.

In other words if you showed up for a Brown Bear hunt in Alaska with a Stevens 200 rifle, I am pretty sure the guide would tell you to stay in the plane. Strictly from a reliability stand point.

Even the customs made from wood-if you look closely, a custom smith is more concerned about the strength of the wood in certain areas, more than he is concerned about how "pretty" the wood is.

So there is no doubt that your $400 rifle will work effectively for a guy who spends a few days a year in the deer woods of PA, and he shoots 20 to 100 shells a year.

But for a person who flies to several different states to hunt, and to Africa or other places, that hunter has to depend 100% on his firearm to function properly under any field condition. And no matter how heavy recoiling the rifle is. And if he is a target shooter then he has to depend on it to last for thousands of shots.

Those are the real reasons for a SHOOTER or HUNTER to own a custom rifle.

Not to mention the fact that you are buying a rifle that FITS you the way a rifle should. That the comb is the proper height, and the stock is of proper length for you.

I could go on for a lot longer. But if this is not enough to convince you then I would be wasting the band width. Tom.

Not to mention pride of ownership!!


Excellent post HH!
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Well I really didn't think this was a useless thread LIKE 700 feels but it was more curiousity on my part. I have $400 guns and I have collector guns worth several thousand. I have been out of state several times. I admire great wood on a gun and enjoy quality steel! I only posted just to get opinions and to see what some of you are all about since I'm still pretty new on this board. I understand about having something hand crafted since I work with granite, marble, blue stone and limestone. All of which I craft by hand. Not trying to ruffle anyones feathers
 

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And some guys think a TC Hawken Flintlock shoots as reliably and as fast as a Brad Emig custom flintlock long rifle. Not in this or the next life.

Seriously, MOA at 100 yds can be attained by alot of factory rifles. MOA at 200 yds, not so many. At 500 yds, by darn few. On March 16, 1901, Harry Pope fired a five shot offhand group at 200 yards that measured just under 1 inch, setting a world record. I'd like to see the factory rifle capable of that.
 

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I'll still take my $200 marlin 22 mag over any kimber, any day of the week. I don't CARE how smooth the kimber is, and i give a rats wet behind about the wood...my marlins have all stuck bullets on top of each other at 100 yards, and i'm able to click the 4" plate at 200 with it...i'm content and frugal.

My Marlin 308 is shooting VERY well, especially for a lightweight sporter barrel, and as far as a smooth action? Come on out with me. It aint' purdy...but it works, and consistently holds the longer range groups to mimick the closer stuff. Besides...at 500-1000 yards, the rifle has VERY little to do with it. If you really think that you are one disillusioned human being. it's the nut behind the butt that makes the 1000 yard shot possible. the rifle is just a hammer...it's how you swing that hammer that gets the job done. I'm ultimately more fearful of a one gun country bumpkin that shoots his rifle 10 times a week than a hummer driving custom rifle toting benchrest geek that throws 10k rounds a year at paper out to 1000 yards. Just my $.02

My rifles are meant to be USED, not looked at, so i don't care about the purdy wood. That's not to say I woudldn't mind getting a Boyd's replacement stock for my XS7, but because I like the feel of wood on my cheek moreso than plastic...nevertheless, i shoot plastic stocks b/c thats what my budget affords. Still...i'm CHEAP and even if i had it like that, I probably would not hunt with a Cheytac. Oh who am i kidding? They make SP .50 BMG right? That's "a bullet designed to expand upon impact" AND it's a Centerfire to boot...perfectly legal in PA to hunt with a Barrett around these parts too... so which would YOU use, the .416 or the .50?
 
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