[CplDevilDog]

Just following the post over at "fed up with rotten hunters" in the Archery Hunting Forum and had a question.

Is it Trespassing if the land is not posted and you have not been told by someone to "stay out".

As a former police officer in NC I know that one of the Elements Of The Offense for the charge of Trespassing was the person had to know that they were not welcome. Just being on someone else's property was not enough to charge someone with Trespassing. The person had to either have been previously told by someone to stay out or there had to be signs.

Not saying its right to walk onto other people's property (in fact I don't think its right) but just from the point of The Law. Any PA LEO's want to weigh-in on this?

 

[cen]

Is it Trespassing if the land is not posted and you have not been told by someone to "stay out".

Without intent, I would say No

 

[mountainhippie]

I think you can only have them arrested if they refuse to leave, but yeah, it's still trespassing to go onto private property without permission.

 

[ICAREDOYOU]

If I walk into your house is it tresspassing cause someone did not tell me NOT to enter??

If it is not your property and you were not invited, WHY wouldn't it be tresspassing?

 

[RegularJoe]

Unreal. Seriously? So if I like your yard, and it isn't posted, I can walk up into it to look for a picnic spot it's okay until you get fed up and tell me to leave?

A written permission law would solve all of this nonsense.

 

[bobcat]

i have a buddy who had to go to court for "trespassing". he had written permision on the land he started on. both properties had been recently logged and the guy who logged it took a few of the line trees with the posters on. he beat it because he had permision on the one property, did not know he wasn't welcome on the other and it was an honest mistake.
i ask on all the places i hunt and trap but i don't think the written permission thing will help much. at least not for the honest hunter. there are plenty of properties where i stop in and ask or have to call every time because of their friends or family that may be hunting and they don't want me or the boys in there then but other times its fine. if i had to get written permison everytime it would be a pain in the neck for me and the land owners. and slobs will still be slobs with or without paper work. if you own property and you don't want people on it post it well and arrest trespassers. written permission won't solve anything.

 

[ICAREDOYOU]

I agree. We always want to copy other states in thier hunting laws and regs so why not copy those that require that WRITTEN permission.

If you KNOW it is not your property STAY OFF period.

 

[CplDevilDog]

Unreal. Seriously? So if I like your yard, and it isn't posted, I can walk up into it to look for a picnic spot it's okay until you get fed up and tell me to leave?

Not sure if that is the case in PA but it certainly was in NC. Any LEO want to chime in on the exact Elements Of The Offense for Trespassing

 

[RegularJoe]

Written permission will place the burden where it belongs, on the hunter, to make sure he has been granted access. Also makes it enforceable by a WCO if it is written into the game code. Pain in the neck? I don't have time to tell you the stories, I deal with lazy and inconsiderate hunters all year long.

I believe many properties are posted now because the current system is a pain in the neck and puts the landowners in a submissive posture when people can say I didn't know, I got lost, didn't see the signs, and I'm supposed to feel sorry they are so inept. If it is a law that you must posess documentation and know where you are and not just expected behavior, it's a step in the right direction. That's my opionion as a landowner who has heard all the excuses.

 

[CplDevilDog]

If I walk into your house is it tresspassing cause someone did not tell me NOT to enter??

If it is not your property and you were not invited, WHY wouldn't it be tresspassing?

I think the legislature decided that a closed door on a house was enough of a warning sign to "keep out" that they came up with "Unlawful Entry" which would be the correct charge and not Burglary or Breaking and Entering since there was no intent to commit a crime inside.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

There are basically two kinds of trespass to land in PA. 1) Civil Trespass and 2) Criminal Trespass. Any unconsented entry onto the land of another without a legal right to enter, is civil trespassing and the landowner has the right to sue the person who entered. One of the more recent cases in PA on civil trespassing to land is Jones vs Wagner, a PA Superior Court case from 1992. The second type of trespass to land is where the entry is such that the actor can be arrested, fined and possibly imprisoned. Signs and warning to stay out are NOT necessary under some circumstances. For instance in PA, entry into a fenced area intended to enclose livestock requires no sign or warning. Entry into an area designed to keep people out is trespassing. Entry on to property and doing damage, starting a fire or to terrorize the occupants are all criminal trespassing even without signs or warning. Driving across a cultivated field without permission is trespassing under the motor vehicle code. Under the ATV/ Snowmobile law, any operation on private land without the consent of the owner is criminal trespassing, no signs or warning required. Just driving down a private road without permission can be criminal trespassing. Pa even has a law for criminal trespass to land by aircraft that requires no sign or warning.

 

[Flanuva]

As a hunter, it is your responsibility to know where all the property lines are around where you are hunting.

 

[RegularJoe]

I've put 3 hunters off in the last year all said they did not know who owned the land they were on. Gotta love folks like that. One was tracking a wounded buck that was not legal, the other two had turkey decoys set up in sight of my house.

 

[bob1961]

from what i know if your not invited on a piece of property to hunt or for what ever reason even though it is not posted to keep off of it, you are trespassing on any property were you "DO NOT" have permission from owner to be on/use....also i hear people saying "oh it's not posted, we are safe" just frosts me over on how ignorant they can be

....i'm trying to get permission from a land owner next to property i have to hunt on for use to bring a large deer or bear off the property i have to hunt by way of a tractor road he has on his land....well he doesn't have permission to be on the land i have next to his so his thought is toward me why should i let you on my land....he said he would think bout it and bout a week later when i went to the land owner of property i have permission from to go up with him to post some more signs....he tells me the other guy came to him to ask if i have permission and he was told i was the only one who has it....i think what frosted this other guy over was he used to be allowed to go on his property to sit on a ridge that over looked the lackwaxen river as it is a great view....but asking one year don't give you permission for the next 5/6 years and bring your whole family and friends up there instead of just him and his wife, to say the least this guy was

and

....so the day he told me this guy was at his place asking bout me, i went to his place to see if he had come to an answer....well what i got was not what i was ready for

....first thing out of his mouth was "you don't read english too well do you?" ....i asked what he was talking bout and that i stopped by his house to see after talking to jeff if he made up his mind with an answer....he then informed me of the no trespassing sign at the end of his driveway i went past to get to his house....i said yes, he then said then you are trespassing on my property then because you do not have permission to come to my house....funny thing is when i was at his house a few months ago to hire him and his tractor to do some driveway work at my house he had no problem with me going past his sign to his house when i didn't have permission then

....so just because i have permission to be where he abused his land use he is doing this to me, i mean come on use what you have permission for with respect and you won't lose it

....sorry for the long rant folks

..........bob

....

 

[ICAREDOYOU]

even an open door.....STAY OUT...it is not your place.

 

[bassnleo]

Here is the PA Trespassing law:

§ 3503. Criminal trespass

(a) Buildings and occupied structures.--

(1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he:

(i) enters, gains entry by subterfuge or surreptitiously remains in any building or occupied structure or separately secured or occupied portion thereof; or

(ii) breaks into any building or occupied structure or separately secured or occupied portion thereof.

(2) An offense under paragraph (1)(i) is a felony of the third degree, and an offense under subparagraph (1)(ii) is a felony of the second degree.

(3) As used in this subsection:

"Breaks into." To gain entry by force, breaking, intimidation, unauthorized opening of locks, or through an opening not designed for human access.


(b) Defiant trespasser.--


(1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place as to which notice against trespass is given by:

(i) actual communication to the actor;

(ii) posting in a manner prescribed by law or reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders;

(iii) fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed to exclude intruders;

(iv) notices posted in a manner prescribed by law or reasonably likely to come to the person's attention at each entrance of school grounds that visitors are prohibited without authorization from a designated school, center or program official; or

(v) an actual communication to the actor to leave school grounds as communicated by a school, center or program official, employee or agent or a law enforcement officer.

(2) Except as provided in paragraph (1)(v), an offense under this subsection constitutes a misdemeanor of the third degree if the offender defies an order to leave personally communicated to him by the owner of the premises or other authorized person. An offense under paragraph (1)(v) constitutes a misdemeanor of the first degree. Otherwise it is a summary offense.


(b.1) Simple trespasser.--


(1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place for the purpose of:

(i) threatening or terrorizing the owner or occupant of the premises;

(ii) starting or causing to be started any fire upon the premises; or

(iii) defacing or damaging the premises.

(2) An offense under this subsection constitutes a summary offense.


(b.2) Agricultural trespasser.--


(1) A person commits an offense if knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so he:

(i) enters or remains on any agricultural or other open lands when such lands are posted in a manner prescribed by law or reasonably likely to come to the person's attention or are fenced or enclosed in a manner manifestly designed to exclude trespassers or to confine domestic animals; or

(ii) enters or remains on any agricultural or other open lands and defies an order not to enter or to leave that has been personally communicated to him by the owner of the lands or other authorized person.

(2) An offense under this subsection shall be graded as follows:

(i) An offense under paragraph (1)(i) constitutes a misdemeanor of the third degree and is punishable by imprisonment for a term of not more than one year and a fine of not less than $250.

(ii) An offense under paragraph (1)(ii) constitutes a misdemeanor of the second degree and is punishable by imprisonment for a term of not more than two years and a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $5,000.

(3) For the purposes of this subsection, the phrase "agricultural or other open lands" shall mean any land on which agricultural activity or farming as defined in section 3309 (relating to agricultural vandalism) is conducted or any land populated by forest trees of any size and capable of producing timber or other wood products or any other land in an agricultural security area as defined in the act of June 30, 1981 (P.L. 128, No. 43), [FN1] known as the Agricultural Area Security Law, or any area zoned for agricultural use.


(b.3) Agricultural biosecurity area trespasser.--


(1) A person commits an offense if the person does any of the following:

(i) Enters an agricultural biosecurity area, knowing that the person is not licensed or privileged to do so.

(ii) Knowingly or recklessly fails to perform reasonable measures for biosecurity that by posted notice are required to be performed for entry to the agricultural biosecurity area.

(2) It is a defense to prosecution under paragraph (1)(ii) that:

(i) no reasonable means or method was available to perform the measures that the posted notice required to be performed for entry to the agricultural biosecurity area;

(ii) entry is made in response to a condition within the agricultural biosecurity area that the person reasonably believes to be a serious threat to human or animal health as necessitating immediate entry to the agricultural biosecurity area; or

(iii) entry is made under exigent circumstances by a law enforcement officer to:

(A) pursue and apprehend a suspect of criminal conduct reasonably believed by the officer to be present within the agricultural biosecurity area; or

(B) prevent the destruction of evidence of criminal conduct reasonably believed by the officer to be located within the agricultural biosecurity area.



(3)(i) Except as set forth in subparagraph (iii), an offense under paragraph (1)(i) constitutes a misdemeanor of the third degree.

(ii) Except as set forth in subparagraph (iii), an offense under paragraph (1)(ii) constitutes a summary offense.

(iii) If an offense under paragraph (1) causes damage to or death of an animal or plant within an agricultural biosecurity area, the offense constitutes a misdemeanor of the first degree.

(4) For purposes of this subsection, the terms "agricultural biosecurity area" and "posted notice" shall have the meanings given to them in 3 Pa.C.S. § 2303 (relating to definitions).


(c) Defenses.--It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:


(1) a building or occupied structure involved in an offense under subsection (a) of this section was abandoned;

(2) the premises were at the time open to members of the public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions imposed on access to or remaining in the premises; or

(3) the actor reasonably believed that the owner of the premises, or other person empowered to license access thereto, would have licensed him to enter or remain.


(d) Definition.--As used in this section, the term "school grounds" means any building of or grounds of any elementary or secondary publicly funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education, any elementary or secondary parochial school, any certified day-care center or any licensed preschool program.

 

[bearhunter jay]

Almost all trespassing while hunting is simple trespassing unless you have already been told by the landowner to stay off.If you refuse to leave or come back then your in the defiant trespass.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Actually Bearhunterjay, you're mistaken. Any entry onto posted agricultural lands or woodlands capable of producing woodland products (even just firewood) is agricultural trespassing AND is a misdemeanor. Any entry into a fenced pasture is the same. Read all of 3503 (b,2) cited above. Getting LEO's to enforce the law as written is yet another difficult matter.

 

[Guest]

So, if I catch someone trespassing on my forest land, it's a $500 fine?

If thats the case, why are so many saying PA's trespass laws have no teeth?

If I catch them, like I did a couple weekends ago, on an atv on my forest land, what do they get?

 

[Guest]

Almost all trespassing while hunting is simple trespassing unless you have already been told by the landowner to stay off.If you refuse to leave or come back then your in the defiant trespass.

I disagree. It seems that having signs up pretty much makes any trespass "defiant trespass". Those signs have the same effect as me sitting on a property line telling someone to stay out.