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Discussion Starter #1
The deer management issue is starting to sound like a broken record. Although i agree there is a serious problem in some parts of the state.
The thing that bothers me the most is all the complaining i hear and no actions being taken.
Does anyone know the definition of democracy anymore? Let me refresh your memory...simply put... "Gov't in which the people hold the ruling power."
So in a nutshell...if your cries and complaints about low deer density continually fall on deaf ears and we as sportsman do nothing..well?...who's fault is that?
A few years ago here in our neighborhood we noticed a declining deer population. Yet the PGC continued to issue more doe tags and then on top of it, mandate a two week long Antlered and Anterless ,if its "brown its down" season.
We as a neighborhood decided enough is enough. By spreading the word and encouraging friends and neighbors to limit the doe kill in our area. We have been fairly successful in maintaining a healthy deer herd.
Although we doe shoot a few doe..We limit our kill..for example i have decided not to shoot a doe if i see the cabin down the road has already shot a few...nothing scientific about it...we just limit our kill...almost all the neighbors are in agreement on this. Some have posted their ground against doe hunting. We have thousands of acres of state Forest land at our disposal. And we manage the state ground in our area the same way. I realize we can only control our local neighborhood. But the funny thing is When i get away from our "neck of the woods"..For the most part i see a decline in deer numbers.
I should also note we indeed have new seedlings sprouting up..i can take you to places on the mt that are full of young oak, maple ect...so no we are not overbrowsed..
If you continue to see declining deer numbers in your area..Why not do the same?....The PGC and state forestry really only have power if you allow them to have it...Frankly the PGC cannot force you to shoot more deer.
They may protest and try to belittle sportsman into thinking we as a people are not intelligent enough to manage a deer herd. Yet there are large private associations that have proven time and time again that they are more than capable.
i am all for a PGC and its laws....as long as it is indeed goverened "by the people and for the people"
 

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Re: cordTired of hearing it.....

Another person laboring under the mistaken belief that the PGC should do what hunters want just because they want it. We are where we are today because past boards of of the Commission didn't have the courage <span style="font-weight: bold">NOT</span> to do what hunters wanted. Another person who now sees some regeneration ocurring and instead of seeing progress now wants to go back to where we started by allowing once again too many deer which will quickly undo all the progress we have made . Another person looking for instant satisfaction. It took decades for the damage to ocurr and the problem will not be solved in only one decade. I too am tired, tired of those who refust to see the forest through the deer.
 

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Re: cordTired of hearing it.....

The deer management issue is a broken record, one that will never be fixed to everyones satifaction. That is why many hunters discuss it here and every where else. Their is nothing wrong with asking questions unless you are only looking for someone to agree with you and wont accept answers that don't.
 

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Re: cordTired of hearing it.....

I am with you shade. What some people, who are all ra ra that the pgc has a handle on deer polulation for the whole state, fail to realize is that the PGC does not have a handle on the whole state. The DPSM in some areas is way below the carrying capacity of the land, some places it is balanced, still some places with too many (very limited areas IMO).

What would be nice would be if there was a way for sportsmen to get some type of feedback from the PGC regarding the deer density in a specific geographical area. Maybe there is, and I don't know about it. However, we still have to realize that under the current WMU's, the areas are too large to control the harvest for a subsection of the area. For overall HR, the units were suitable. Now that we have accomplished HR (most places), there is no way the herd will remain even remotely balanced across a WMU. Going back to the county map, may not be the answer either, but it would at least give a smaller area (easier to control harvest) to work with. If they did go back to the county map, I would like to see a biologist assess every county at least once every 2 or three years, after each assessment, they should hold a public meeting in the county to review the assessment with the public and allow input/questions. These assessments should be on record and reviewable via the PGC web page. Maybe something along the same line is available now, I don't know, if it is, a generalization of deer populations on an entire WMU is not good enough IMO.

I don't mind changes, as long as the people in charge realize that not every change is going to be a success. And when a change is not successful or even if it has accomplished the original goal, I want those same people to man up and admit it, then propose another change to fix it or in the case where it has met it's goal, to relinquish that change. Problem is, nobody wants to admit to a anything less than a 100% success (no matter the stage).
 

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Re: cordTired of hearing it.....

There will allways be areas with high numbers of deer and areas that have too little deer.Issuing tags on a county by county basis was hard enough ,now we have much larger "zones".
There are too many variables that interfere with harvesting the proper amount of deer for a given area. You have areas with posted ground,housing developments,low hunting pressure etc, that the deer are under harvested on then you have public land that gets pounded.Too manage properly you would have to issue tags on a township by township basis, But the cost to do this is why it will never happen.
 

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Re: cordTired of hearing it.....

John S said:
Another person laboring under the mistaken belief that the PGC should do what hunters want just because they want it. We are where we are today because past boards of of the Commission didn't have the courage NOT to do what hunters wanted. Another person who now sees some regeneration ocurring and instead of seeing progress now wants to go back to where we started by allowing once again too many deer which will quickly undo all the progress we have made . Another person looking for instant satisfaction. It took decades for the damage to ocurr and the problem will not be solved in only one decade. I too am tired, tired of those who refust to see the forest through the deer.
No it won't but you should see some change in the forest and there isn't anything new in my area they need to quit focusing on just the deer and start looking at stuff such as acid rain.
 

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Re: cordTired of hearing it.....

Did you know what it looked like before HR?
 

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Re: cordTired of hearing it.....

...they need to quit focusing on just the deer and start looking at stuff such as acid rain.
OK...tell me what the PGC can do about acid rain??

Can they tell all the electric power plants to stop burning coal??? Think they would listen. LOL
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Re: cordTired of hearing it.....

John
Do you truly believe the PGC has a handle on the deer populations in all areas? surely your not that naive?..i support the PGC and its laws..But when a local community of sportsman realize that the local deer herd is at a dangerous low, and they take it upon themselves to limit their kill. Are you saying thats wrong! ? I would say that your biggest problem you have with it, isn't so much the deer number issue as it is the loss of control.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Re: cordTired of hearing it.....

lol..actualy the more i think about it the more bizzare it seems...so what your saying is it's wrong for PA sportsman to exercise their God given freedom to NOT kill a doe?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Re: cordTired of hearing it.....

J-T
i forgot to mention i agree with you 100% As large as our current WMU's are there can be a vast diffrence in deer density within a given WMU..2G is a perfect example of that..what the PGC has got to understand is we as sportsman are not trying to do away with the PGC, in any way shape or form..The fact that PA has far, far more sportsman in the field than PGC personel.Gives us as sportsman at least a reasonable idea of deer numbers...I think what many sportsman are tired of is hunting some areas and seeing very , very, very few deer. And the PGC acts like we don't know what we are talking about. A prime example of that was a DMAP area in lycoming county a few years back..i arrived in the mt before daybreak. A 3 day old snow on the ground. I walked all day till dark just trying to cut a track..i never did..NOT ONE!!..now i am in very, very good shape. I can very easily cover ALOT! of ground in a day. Yet the very next year that area was back on the DMAP list...I'll be the first to agree we have got to maintain our forest against overbrowsing...LOL!!!!!!..but for crying out loud !!lets not eliminate the deer herd to do it. !!...i agree wev'e accomplished HR, i think its time we hear the PGC Man up and admit mabye they overdid it in some areas..I think you'll find most sportsman more than willing to support them. I to think we are long overdue for smaller WMU's
 

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Re: cordTired of hearing it.....

Shade- you are fortunate that you got members of your neighborhood to cooperate and work together towards a common goal, but that will not happen in many places where the land is open to hunting for anyone. Actually, a good bit of luck goes into it working for your neighborhood because, if it is public land, I may show up with three doe tags every year and use them all...and you couldn't really stop me. How long would your neighbors be willing to NOT shoot doe when I was taking three a year, every year, from this land?
 

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.nothing scientific about it.
Shade Mt. you sure are right about that! That is about as bogus a management approach as any I've ever seen.

And to think you and others question literally dozens of biologists and professionals who truly do live with this every day of their lives.
 

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Re: cordTired of hearing it.....

shade mt said:
J-T
i forgot to mention i agree with you 100% As large as our current WMU's are there can be a vast diffrence in deer density within a given WMU..2G is a perfect example of that..what the PGC has got to understand is we as sportsman are not trying to do away with the PGC, in any way shape or form..The fact that PA has far, far more sportsman in the field than PGC personel.Gives us as sportsman at least a reasonable idea of deer numbers...I think what many sportsman are tired of is hunting some areas and seeing very , very, very few deer. And the PGC acts like we don't know what we are talking about. A prime example of that was a DMAP area in lycoming county a few years back..i arrived in the mt before daybreak. A 3 day old snow on the ground. I walked all day till dark just trying to cut a track..i never did..NOT ONE!!..now i am in very, very good shape. I can very easily cover ALOT! of ground in a day. Yet the very next year that area was back on the DMAP list...I'll be the first to agree we have got to maintain our forest against overbrowsing...LOL!!!!!!..but for crying out loud !!lets not eliminate the deer herd to do it. !!...i agree wev'e accomplished HR, i think its time we hear the PGC Man up and admit mabye they overdid it in some areas..I think you'll find most sportsman more than willing to support them. I to think we are long overdue for smaller WMU's
In order to keep the herd stable,you need to kill about 30% of the adults does.They collared 100's of deer for a doe mortality study.In 2G.less than 8% of those does are getting killed.Hunters can't reduce the population by shooting that small of a percentage of does.I live in 2G and do all of my hunting there.I can find vast areas of land with very few deer and very poor habitat.These areas are so vast and so rugged,I've hunted them on the last day of the season and never cut another bootprint,even though there was snow cover for the entire season.Hunters can't and don't impact the deer in mnay of these areas,yet there's not alot of deer.On the other hand,I know quite a few areas with either better habitat or just some seasonal food sources that are loaded with deer just a few miles away from these areas.It's about food and habitat.Without those two things,you're not going to have alot of deer and that's the way it should be.I'd like to see more deer but I fully understand why things are the way they are.Also,I feel that hunters own observations are a very poor indicator of local deer populations.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Re: cordTired of hearing it.....

Danesdad
Although landowners can for the most part control what happens on their ground, public ground is a whole different matter. It is PUBLIC!!! property and cannot nor should it be dictated by any one group or individual..You would be more than welcome to lawfully shoot a doe. Our neighborhood and the cabins in the area simply cut back on anterless harvest because guys were getting tired of hunting and not seeing any deer. We never formed any co-op group or anything like that. We as neighbors naturally communicate back and forth on a regular basis, throughout the year. Its common to have a neighbor ask.."seeing any deer" ? compare notes ect..Or to run into a neighbor in town, and he might comment "i haven't seen many deer this year i don't think were gonna take any doe off the farm"...just a simple responsible understanding that you don't keep shooting doe if you don't have many.. its just good stewardship.
 

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And to think you and others question literally dozens of biologists and professionals who truly do live with this every day of their lives.
Ever hear of tunnel vision?
I don't much care if people shoot doe...that is their choice and I have no control over it. I do have control over what I do and can honestly say I havn't pulled the trigger on an antlerless deer in quite a few years. The last doe I shot was when they allowed you to take one on the last Saturday of buck season....think that was about 2002 or so.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Re: cordTired of hearing it.....

and bowbum
If i noticed the cabin down the road has had a pretty good season with a number of doe hanging on the meat pole and i decide not to use my tag because they already shot quite a few doe out back on the mt.. What the heck is wrong with that!!!!?....who ever said that WAS!! scientific..just my choice like it or lump it.
 

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Re: cordTired of hearing it.....

John S said:
Did you know what it looked like before HR?
yeah and i know it doesn't take ten years to have a tree sprout. What about areas in towns that have trees and such that you know doesn't have deer eating the trees why don't you see regeneration in these areas?
 

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Re: cordTired of hearing it.....

Freytown said:
...they need to quit focusing on just the deer and start looking at stuff such as acid rain.
OK...tell me what the PGC can do about acid rain??

Can they tell all the electric power plants to stop burning coal??? Think they would listen. LOL
There are things that can be done to the soil that can help regrowth but that costs money it's easier to put licenses out there where you get money instead of spend it. The deer aren't the whole problem.
 
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