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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A fellow posted on another forum that he was told by his WCO that his flintlock 20 ga smooth bore pistol is not legal for small game when loaded with shot, because the regs say a muzzle loading handgun MUST be 40 cal or under.

Seems the regs don't allow for the possibility of a smoothbore muzzle loader handgun to be considered a shotgun.

§ 141.22. Small game.

(a) Permitted devices. It is lawful to hunt small game, except woodchucks with the following devices:

(1) A manually operated rifle or handgun. The firearm must be .23 caliber or less, that projects single-projectile ammunition.

(2) A manually operated or semiautomatic centerfire shotgun or muzzleloading shotgun. The firearm must be 10 gauge or less, that projects multiple-projectile shotgun ammunition not larger than #4 lead, #2 steel, or #4 of any other composition or alloy of nontoxic shot approved by the Director of the United States Fish and Wildlife Service or an authorized representative under 50 CFR 20.134 (relating to nontoxic shot).

(3) A muzzleloading rifle or <span style="font-weight: bold">handgun</span>. The firearm must be .40 caliber or less, that projects single-projectile ammunition.

It would seem that all those 45LC/410 combo pistols are also illegal. the reg says a handgun must be 23 caliber or under.

Can a smooth bore muzzle loading pistol,over 40 cal. be a shotgun legal for small game or not?
 

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If you read the law its illegal, a contender handgun is 45 cal. thats above .23 if its a handgun. If its a shotgun then the barrel length is too short, should be 18" unless you have a special permit. But when I asked a deptuty game warden he said if your using .45 ammo It would be a problem, but if your using .410 shells you are ok. I was hunting with him when I asked. Was also checked in Adams county by the game warden, he looked at my contender and my friends comanche, and said it was the first time he saw anyone using them for rabbit hunting. He didn't indicate any problem using them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Except that a contender is a rifled pistol. The law pertains to the firearm not the ammo being fired.

Take note the rule permits only centerfire shotguns or muzzleloader shotguns. No pin fire shotguns. No rim fire shotguns.
 

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Not sure what you mean. What I was saying is the contender is above .23 cal, so that should make it illegal if its a pistol. Its not a smoothbore so I don't think it should be considered a shotgun, but if so the barrel is too short. Not sure what a pin fire shotgun is. My contender shoots the .410 shells that are centerfire, and the primer is struck by the firing pin.
 

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Yeah, like there are a bunch of people out there wanting to use pin fire shotguns and rimfire shotguns. Don't you ever get tired of trying to prove a point with the absurd?
 

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some just like to muddy the waters
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
More than use the Remington Electronix which the PGC rushed to pass an exemption for.

You can't use a 22 rf with bird shot for hunting.

Absurd is the irrational scheme that the PGC uses to regulate hunting arms.

There a re dozens on this forum who use those 45LC/410 pistols for small game, ILLEGALLY! There are many muzzle loader fans who would like to use their smooth bore pistols with shot for small game.

It is just another instance of the fact that the PGC issues regs with out considering the consequences.

What earthly purpose could the PGC have to limit small game shotguns to just centerfire and muzzleloader? (Other than pure lack of firearms knowledge?)

In 1977, the law for firearms for deer was ANY firearm that propelled a single projectile except rimfires had to be over 25 cal. (autos and semi autos were made illegal under a different section.) What could be simpler than that?

Who advises the PGC on firearms issues? A clerk at Walmart's sporting goods counter?

Absurd is only the pure ignorance of firearms demonstrated by the regulations passed.

I know of at least a half dozen folks who reload pinfire cartridges. I hunted in the past with a 9mm rimfire shotgun. Winchester even made 9mm rf shotguns. Absurd is the ignorance with which the regs are passed.
 

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Zimmerstutzen, thanks for more information you seem to be on your toes and know how to read things. I would agree that by what the book states, that my contender is not legal for smallgame. Maybe John S or RWJ would be able to give a good answer on this contender issue. Someone should be able to tell what makes it alright to use. You should try to get some of these items looked at, you have the knowledge.
 

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Wow, this thread is quite timely reading for me! I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a .62 cal British Dragoon or Sea Service flintlock (smoothbore) pistol. I know it is legal to load one with patched round balls for deer, but the regs seem vague as to whether it could be loaded with shot for small game. If it truely cannot be used with shot for small game, then there is a great deal of irony there, since I can load my .62 cal (smoothbore) fusil with shot and hunt small game. ????!!! It seems there may be either ignorance or serious oversight on those writing these laws. I'd love to get "official" clarification on this.
 

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sorry, but i'am going to try some common sense on this one. if i'am carrying my 45/410 contender for rabbits, which i do, and the choke is in for the shot shells, and all i have on me is 410 ammo, then its a shotgun in my eyes. i have no 45 ammo, and if i did i couldn't shoot it with the choke in it. i also don't have the special tool to remove the choke. same with the smooth bore flintlock. all i have is shot and no single projectiles to load in it. its a shotgun. if they pgc wants to split hairs on those, then we're in trouble. as time goes on and technology changes and new things are developed, we are going to have these grey areas. hopefully common sense will come into play.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
RWJ said"some just like to muddy the waters"


took notice that you are not able to clarify any of the PGC's obtuse verbiage on this point.
 

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zimmerstutzen said:
RWJ said"some just like to muddy the waters"


took notice that you are not able to clarify any of the PGC's obtuse verbiage on this point.
Oh I can, and so can everyone else by applying common sense. However I refrain from posting when your involved, because you just continue to muddy waters and it ends no serving no real purpose.
 

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RWJ, maybev you won't clarify for Zimmerstutzen, but could you clarify it for the rest of us. Applying common sense doesn't make it legal. If it did I would put down wounded deer and other game suffering on the highways. Even though its common sense to me it may not be to others and that is where fines come into play. Everbody has an opinion but whats the legality of contenders and other guns at issue in this post?
 

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I squirrel hunted last season with my Circuit Judge it's a 45LC/410 revolver shotgun/rifle. I plugged it to 3 while hunting squirrel. Was I breaking the law?
 

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Maybe if you would like written clarification on this, why not email you question to the PGC and they will clarify it to you in an email.
 

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Yes you were because that gun cannot be plugged in a manner that is has to be disassembled to remove the plug which must be a one piece filler. Definition of plugged shotgun: Plugged shotgun—For the purpose of section 2308(a)(4) of the act, any shotgun containing a one-piece plug, stop or filler in the magazine to reduce ammunition capacity that is incapable of removal without disassembling the shotgun or magazine.
 

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bushmaster said:
I squirrel hunted last season with my Circuit Judge it's a 45LC/410 revolver shotgun/rifle. I plugged it to 3 while hunting squirrel. Was I breaking the law?
You would have been hunting LAWFULLY for small game as long as it was loaded with proper shot (not sure how you plugged it, but it didnt matter) as it would be considered a handheld shotgun by the Commission

As for how they do it...
34 Pa.C.S.A. § 322
(c) Specific powers and duties.--In order to administrate and enforce this title, the commission through proper action shall:
(5) Fix the type and number of devices which may be used to take game or wildlife.
 

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It was plugged with an orange plug that fills two of the cylinders. So I still don't have an answer. One guy says yes, one guy says no? I'll just have to contact the PGC and ask them I guess. Thanks
 

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If HBG is saying yes they need to read the regulations, the "one piece filler and cannotbe removed wothout disassembling the gun as put in there specifically to prevent the use of revoling cylinder shotguns such as the street sweeper. If they want to make the Judges kegal they need to change the regulations as to the definition of a plugged shotgun. Words mean things and the wording of the regulation make those guns illegal to use unless someone comes up with a one piece plug that is fastened so the gun must be disassembled to get it out.
 
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