[R. S. B.]

I believe coyotes like fresh meat whether they kill it or not.I've seen a lot of frozen carcasses that coyotes never touched.From time to time,they do get adult deer but the majority of those deer were probably weak or sick to begin with.I've watched coyotes come into a field I was glassing several times during late summer and the only deer to take off were does with fawns.Most of the time,the bucks hardly even paid attention to them and the coyotes made no attempts to harass them.

Yep, I too have on many times watched coyotes and deer out in the same field together. I have spent literally thousands of hours sitting out where I could watch field at night with night vison equipment. Many, many time I have seen deer out feeding in the same field where coyotes are hunting. The deer will pay attention to the coyotes but don't seem to be alarmed by their presence.

Dick Bodenhorn

 

[bpottorff]

And I not only think, but know, you are completely full of bologna and that you can't post any pictures of any predator kills. That is because there aren't enough of them out there for you to find EVEN ONE in the next week or probably even the next month.

It is time to other put up or shut up.

I guess there is also another option. You can continue to post the nonsense that has no credibility because you can't produce any evidence and really have nothing more than a lot of misguided opinions on the subject.

Right now your credibility is really flagging.

Dick Bodenhorn

Only because I like others on here that disagree with some of your thoughts. Kind of like dealing with most democrats, it is their way or no way and facts do not matter to them. I am not calling you a democrat, I do have that much respect for you, but you just seem to really take up for predators and discount the many hunters and other skilled people on here that suggest predators may kill more game than you think. I guess that I will have to accept the fact that I will never know as much, as you think you know. Maybe some one else will post enough predator kills to satisfy you desires. As the person you refer to as full of bologna, posting nonsense, with misguided opinions, that as you say has flagging credibility, I have been hunting and living long enough to know that predators kill more than some believe. If all my posts are nonsense, prove them wrong, and the many others speak the same of predation. On the positive side other than predators, we probably agree on many things and have common interests.

 

[Bigbrownie]

Yep, I too have on many times watched coyotes and deer out in the same field together. I have spent literally thousands of hours sitting out where I could watch field at night with night vison equipment. Many, many time I have seen deer out feeding in the same field where coyotes are hunting. The deer will pay attention to the coyotes but don't seem to be alarmed by their presence.

Dick Bodenhorn

Posted this earlier in thread. Have captured other images of the same thing. And have also observed deer ignoring coyotes in the same field.

 

[dce]

Only because I like others on here that disagree with some of your thoughts. Kind of like dealing with most democrats, it is their way or no way and facts do not matter to them. I am not calling you a democrat, I do have that much respect for you, but you just seem to really take up for predators and discount the many hunters and other skilled people on here that suggest predators may kill more game than you think. I guess that I will have to accept the fact that I will never know as much, as you think you know. Maybe some one else will post enough predator kills to satisfy you desires. As the person you refer to as full of bologna, posting nonsense, with misguided opinions, that as you say has flagging credibility, I have been hunting and living long enough to know that predators kill more than some believe. If all my posts are nonsense, prove them wrong, and the many others speak the same of predation. On the positive side other than predators, we probably agree on many things and have common interests.

R.S.B. may be lactose intolerant and only eat non GMO foods but he ain't no Democrat

Only because I like others on here that disagree with some of your thoughts. Kind of like dealing with most democrats, it is their way or no way and facts do not matter to them. I am not calling you a democrat, I do have that much respect for you, but you just seem to really take up for predators and discount the many hunters and other skilled people on here that suggest predators may kill more game than you think. I guess that I will have to accept the fact that I will never know as much, as you think you know. Maybe some one else will post enough predator kills to satisfy you desires. As the person you refer to as full of bologna, posting nonsense, with misguided opinions, that as you say has flagging credibility, I have been hunting and living long enough to know that predators kill more than some believe. If all my posts are nonsense, prove them wrong, and the many others speak the same of predation. On the positive side other than predators, we probably agree on many things and have common interests.

With all due respect,you're the one claiming that predators are reeking havoc on the game populations.The burden of proof is on you.Two different fawn mortality studies and an adult doe morality study do not back up your claims.

 

[RyanR]

If I can see you and can normally outrun you, I don't have much reason to be nervous.

 

[bpottorff]

I believe coyotes like fresh meat whether they kill it or not.I've seen a lot of frozen carcasses that coyotes never touched.From time to time,they do get adult deer but the majority of those deer were probably weak or sick to begin with.I've watched coyotes come into a field I was glassing several times during late summer and the only deer to take off were does with fawns.Most of the time,the bucks hardly even paid attention to them and the coyotes made no attempts to harass them.

I think when they get hungry and can not get fresh they eat frozen.

 

[dce]

nEVER SAY NEVER BUT i'VE NEVER SEEN THEM DO IT.i SUPPOSE THEY'LL EAT ANYTHING IF THEY GET HUNGRY ENOUGH.A few years ago I found a fresh button buck demolished by coyotes on the first saturday of rifle season.I have no idea how it dies as doe weren't in but assumed the coyotes killed it.Later that morning my neighbors daughter gut shot a doe that I found dead a couple days later,not 100 yards from that bb.That deer laid there untouched for couple of months.I have no idea why but if I find a dead deer,and I find them every rifle season,unless the yotes find them that day,I never see them eat them.

 

[bpottorff]

R.S.B. may be lactose intolerant and only eat non GMO foods but he ain't no Democrat

With all due respect,you're the one claiming that predators are reeking havoc on the game populations.The burden of proof is on you.Two different fawn mortality studies and an adult doe morality study do not back up your claims.

I have no burden on me , I state facts, predators eat game and can reduce numbers, especially in high numbers, or uncontrolled numbers. One thing the predator huggers can not explain is why, in our state and others as predator numbers have risen, their prey has gone down in numbers. This applies to muskrat, rabbits, hare, pheasant, grouse, wood rats, chipmunks, turkey, songbirds, deer, quail, domestic fowl, and such, these prey numbers are down in numbers since, coyotes, bobcats, bear , fisher, mink, otter, coon, skunk, weasel, fox, hawks and owls, have increased in numbers. Am I wrong to believe that all these predators that rose in numbers, do not need to eat more prey to survive, and can lower game numbers. Simple math, 10 coyotes eat ten times as much as one. I consider that common sense. Point out where I am wrong. Ask people who hunt, or the guy farther up in the posts, that has a degree, and most will say prey are down in numbers. And predators are up. One more bit, if more predators kill prey that is called mortality , as it increases you have less game, if they can not multiply in numbers greater than what is killed. Then populations drop.

 

[dce]

I don't see any exponential rise in predator number or any decrease in small game numbers except grouse and I wouldn't attribute that to predation.I see as many if not more deer today in the big woods as I did 20+ years ago.I see just as many squirrels,and where there's the right habitat,I see just as many rabbits and once again,I don't see a shortage of turkeys.

 

[Kip Feroce]

Anyone interested in just how nature works every day PLEASE YouTube coyote kills deer and watch the 4th video. If this doesn't make the point, the point will never find be found. Was this coyote lucky, hungry, determined, scared, risking injury or was the deer compromised? Perhaps all of the above. Happens all the time. Just happens to be captured by a camera once in a while. I'm sorry I couldn't post A link.

 

[Kip Feroce]

Coyote vs deer is the title. 5th thumbnail. This deer is very fortunate there weren't 2 coyotes.

 

[beavsteve]

Taking pictures of what I find probably isn’t going to convince anyone. They are usually carcasses with nothing but a back bone and ribs with a gut sac nearby. I have personally seen 3 kills on from coyotes on the Kinzua reservoir though. One was a shed buck the was aged by the forest service biologist at over 5 years old. All 3 deer were over 100 yards from the bank and completely gone of any meat the morning we found them. The buck was within sight of where we fished the day before. Another time the deers stomach was the only thing left other than some hide and wasn’t frozen. I remember it being below 0 degrees that morning so that deer wasn’t killed long before we got there. We actually had fresh snow that day and could see how it played out. From what we could tell it was only 2 coyotes but they knew what they were doing. Like I said before, I don’t think it hurts the deer population but to say they don’t target deer is absurd.

 

[R. S. B.]

I have no burden on me , I state facts, predators eat game and can reduce numbers, especially in high numbers, or uncontrolled numbers. One thing the predator huggers can not explain is why, in our state and others as predator numbers have risen, their prey has gone down in numbers. This applies to muskrat, rabbits, hare, pheasant, grouse, wood rats, chipmunks, turkey, songbirds, deer, quail, domestic fowl, and such, these prey numbers are down in numbers since, coyotes, bobcats, bear , fisher, mink, otter, coon, skunk, weasel, fox, hawks and owls, have increased in numbers. Am I wrong to believe that all these predators that rose in numbers, do not need to eat more prey to survive, and can lower game numbers. Simple math, 10 coyotes eat ten times as much as one. I consider that common sense. Point out where I am wrong. Ask people who hunt, or the guy farther up in the posts, that has a degree, and most will say prey are down in numbers. And predators are up. One more bit, if more predators kill prey that is called mortality , as it increases you have less game, if they can not multiply in numbers greater than what is killed. Then populations drop.

Even though you are convinced that predator numbers have increased over your lifetime I don't you or anyone can actually find one factual piece of evidence to prove it true. Some of the most common predator species populations have certainly changed but not the total number of predators.

As for raptors, the actual studies on raptor populations has shown that the total raptor numbers have remained unchanged or actually slightly declining over the past half century or more with eagles, osprey and peregrine falcons being about the only ones that increased in Pennsylvania during that time.

As for mammal predators when I was growing up on a farm and among an avid trapping family both red and gray fox were in great abundance. There were also way more mink, weasel and raccoons back then than we have now.

As the coyote numbers increased the red and gray fox numbers numbers declined in a major way both because they couldn't compete as well for the prey base and because a coyote would occasionally prey on the fox too. The coyotes also preyed on raccoon, mink and weasel helping to reduce their numbers.

Then as the bobcat numbers increased they were equal predators to the coyote and we started to see the coyote numbers declining.

That is how nature works.

Nope I don't think ANYONE can actually find any evidence that total predator numbers have increased. They can probably prove that predators, just like many game species, have learned to not only live but to thrive by living closer to residential areas as well as just the mote areas of the state though.

Dick Bodenhorn

 

[R. S. B.]

Taking pictures of what I find probably isn’t going to convince anyone. They are usually carcasses with nothing but a back bone and ribs with a gut sac nearby. I have personally seen 3 kills on from coyotes on the Kinzua reservoir though. One was a shed buck the was aged by the forest service biologist at over 5 years old. All 3 deer were over 100 yards from the bank and completely gone of any meat the morning we found them. The buck was within sight of where we fished the day before. Another time the deers stomach was the only thing left other than some hide and wasn’t frozen. I remember it being below 0 degrees that morning so that deer wasn’t killed long before we got there. We actually had fresh snow that day and could see how it played out. From what we could tell it was only 2 coyotes but they knew what they were doing. Like I said before, I don’t think it hurts the deer population but to say they don’t target deer is absurd.

I take it he ones you found were out on the ice of the reservoir?

Yes coyotes will take a deer down when they find one that is sick, injured, weak, old, stupid or even sometimes just unlucky. But, it usually happens during harsh winter conditions that has cause deer to have a hard time escaping. Running them out on to the ice is a common tactic. When snow gets deep deer frequently move to ices waterways and use them as travel corridors, usually because the snow isn't as deep there. But, if chased they can't maintain their footing and fall down allowing the coyotes to catch up and make a successful attack.

Dogs do the same thing. Back in the winters of 1977 and 1978 we had back to back winters with long periods of deep snow that lasted late into the spring. Back then we didn't have many coyotes but we had a problem with free roaming dogs many of which had been dumped in the woods by their owners or were farm dogs that people just allowed to roam freely. During those winters there were dozens upon dozens of deer dragged down on the ice of the Clarion River, which was froze over along nearly the entire length of several counties. We could watch dogs running deer down onto the ice and see how it all played out. We killed probably close to a hundred dogs over those two years. We spent many days over several months patrolling along the river and when we saw dogs chasing deer on the ice we shot the dogs.

As the coyotes became more common they also preyed on the free roaming dogs and brought that problem under control. The coyotes also removed the many, literally hundreds, stray cats that people had taken to the woods and dumped off.

Dick Bodenhorn

 

[bpottorff]

Not too point out a problem, but in your own words coyotes have increased, bobcats have increased. Almost sounds like you are arguing with your self. When I was born coyotes were not common. Hawks and owls rarely seen, fisher were not in the state probably. Otters were not common, less bear, bobcats were less common. Now we have many coyotes, more bear resulting in more hunting opportunities, more bobcats with a season, as a result. Maybe less weasel, probably because of raptors. And if you drive down the highway you see more hawks in an hour, than you did in a month, years back. If you hunt and go out early in the morning, in the dark you hear owls. Thank you for telling me how you think nature works. By the way since many people on here that hunt, have seen a reduction in some prey animals, like turkeys , hare, grouse, pheasant, quail, muskrat, and maybe others what can we do to bring back numbers? What do you suggest?

 

[bpottorff]

I take it he ones you found were out on the ice of the reservoir?

Yes coyotes will take a deer down when they find one that is sick, injured, weak, old, stupid or even sometimes just unlucky. But, it usually happens during harsh winter conditions that has cause deer to have a hard time escaping. Running them out on to the ice is a common tactic. When snow gets deep deer frequently move to ices waterways and use them as travel corridors, usually because the snow isn't as deep there. But, if chased they can't maintain their footing and fall down allowing the coyotes to catch up and make a successful attack.

Dogs do the same thing. Back in the winters of 1977 and 1978 we had back to back winters with long periods of deep snow that lasted late into the spring. Back then we didn't have many coyotes but we had a problem with free roaming dogs many of which had been dumped in the woods by their owners or were farm dogs that people just allowed to roam freely. During those winters there were dozens upon dozens of deer dragged down on the ice of the Clarion River, which was froze over along nearly the entire length of several counties. We could watch dogs running deer down onto the ice and see how it all played out. We killed probably close to a hundred dogs over those two years. We spent many days over several months patrolling along the river and when we saw dogs chasing deer on the ice we shot the dogs.

As the coyotes became more common they also preyed on the free roaming dogs and brought that problem under control. The coyotes also removed the many, literally hundreds, stray cats that people had taken to the woods and dumped off.

Dick Bodenhorn

If you were a dog shooter, thank you for helping with that problem. Our one local warden years back told me he also shot many dogs on the game lands. Good job.

 

[R. S. B.]

Not too point out a problem, but in your own words coyotes have increased, bobcats have increased. Almost sounds like you are arguing with your self. When I was born coyotes were not common. Hawks and owls rarely seen, fisher were not in the state probably. Otters were not common, less bear, bobcats were less common. Now we have many coyotes, more bear resulting in more hunting opportunities, more bobcats with a season, as a result. Maybe less weasel, probably because of raptors. And if you drive down the highway you see more hawks in an hour, than you did in a month, years back. If you hunt and go out early in the morning, in the dark you hear owls. Thank you for telling me how you think nature works. By the way since many people on here that hunt, have seen a reduction in some prey animals, like turkeys , hare, grouse, pheasant, quail, muskrat, and maybe others what can we do to bring back numbers? What do you suggest?

Obviously you once again either missed the entire point or just refuse to accept anything that isn't the way to believe it should be even when all the evidence proves you are wrong. Must be those reading comprehension skills again?

The point was, and the facts are, that when coyote numbers increased the fox, raccoon, mink and weasel numbers declined. So even though you had more coyotes you had fewer of the other predators preying on small game. So, you did not end up with any more predators in the past decades than you had back in those old days. The most common predator species might have changed some but the number of predators or the amount of prey they consumed has not changed.

As for why some species appear to have declined there are many reasons for that.

First of all many of us have not seen the degree of species decline that some profess has occurred. One of the reasons is simply that people's memories just aren't as accurate as they think they are. Without keeping good records you can easily be mistake on game sightings and game harvest from the "good ole days" to today. I became acutely aware of that fact while doing annual wildlife survey routes many years ago. While doing the same route during the same time period year after year it seemed like every year I thought I was seeing less than I had seen in prior years. But, at the end of the survey period and I would be compiling the actual numbers and comparing them to prior years it was common to discover that I was mistaken and had seen about the same number or even more than I had seen in prior year. That is why I have since always kept a log of the number of hours I spend hunting in each season and what I saw. That too hasn't changed much over the past several decades for most species. Grouse and turkey are the two exceptions to that but I also know there are factors way beyond predation that have affected the populations of those two species.

As for what can be done to help improve game sightings.

The first is to start keeping an accurate log of time afield and what you actually saw verse what you think you saw and be able to compare past reality to a past remembered.

Then the second best thing you can do to improve any wildlife population is to study it, learning what habitat it needs, what is most lacking in those needs then set out to improve those most needed habitats.

Dick Bodenhorn

 

[R. S. B.]

If you were a dog shooter, thank you for helping with that problem. Our one local warden years back told me he also shot many dogs on the game lands. Good job.

I certainly never liked it when I had to shoot a dog. But, back then it was an issue that had to be addressed for the benefit of wildlife. I don't recall even having to shoot a dog once the coyote population was established in those same areas though.

I can assure you the dogs back then were killing a lot more deer than coyotes ever did. I suspect dogs are probably still killing more adult deer, in most areas of the state, than the coyotes are. Probably more than coyote and bobcat combined in fact. I do suspect the coyotes and bobcats kill more fawns than dogs though.

Dick Bodenhorn

 

[bpottorff]

So we may really not be as low on game as I thought, might just be we can not remember what we saw, as for the habitat what would you suggest to help deer, turkey, grouse, and say muskrat? Besides weather, habitat, and disease, what other factors have you seen reduce game numbers?

 

[R. S. B.]

So we may really not be as low on game as I thought, might just be we can not remember what we saw, as for the habitat what would you suggest to help deer, turkey, grouse, and say muskrat?

For deer more clearcutting is helpful but probably the best thing hunters can do to help to harvest about as many deer as they can. The worst thing you do when you want more deer is to over protect them and under protect their most nutritious browse species.

For turkeys I am not sure we can or even need to do much to improve their habitat though maintaining high quality grassy openings that that produce the high insect populations need poults is important. I thin k if we can get some back to back good spring weather conditions we will be well on our way toward seeing turkey numbers on the increase again.

For grouse more cutting. But, it would have to include the private lands instead of just being on the limited amount of land available on game lands and other public land. For grouse the future is bleak unless they can either figure how to get the West Nile under control or grouse build an genetic immunity.

As for muskrats that one is a mystery to me and obviously to many others as well. But, like wild pheasants in many areas of the state it seems they too disappeared rapidly in the years following the heavy flooding of hurricane Agnus in 1972.

It used to be, back in the 50s, 60s and early 70s that most farm ponds and beaver dams had a population of muskrats. Maybe farmers being less tolerant of not only muskrats but cattails and other vegetation in their ponds might have a little bit to do with it. I don't know.

Besides weather, habitat, and disease, what other factors have you seen reduce game numbers?

Besides what you listed highways and predation as wells the urban sprawl and ever increasing introduction and take over of invasive plant and insect species that remove native habitat all have an adverse affect on a wide variety of wildlife populations, their habitats and food supplies.

Dick Bodenhorn