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I agree that the article is trying to put as happy a face on the issue as possible. The simple fact is that the hunting is not as good as it was in the 70's, 80's, or even the 90's. Sure, if you spend the time and locate the remaining decent cover the flush rate can be good but the ever shrinking size of that decent cover concentrates the group effort (hunters).
I've been disappointed overall with the efforts of the PGC in support of ruffed grouse over the past thirty years. No question in my mind that lack of suitable habitat is the primary problem. I know I spend a lot more hours per year scouting new spots and miles driven than I did in the 70's & 80's to see grouse.
 

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Gentlemen,
Please understand politcs is the real problem.
Habitat not managed properly on public lands is due to politics, law suits by communist tree huggers has influenced even the PGC. They even try to stop private land owners from harvesting forests. Biologist like Bill Palmer have been forced to retire because of this rotten politics. Unless the young sportsman wake up and start fighting back, prime habitat will continue to shrink,
one of the most dangerous situations to hunting & Pa's SGL is the multi-usage garbage that has now started. The SGL needs to be managed for hunting and nothing else.
We have plenty of State Parks in Pa for the none hunters to play on, in which they have outlawed dog training.
However these same people want to use the SGL for their nonhunting private play grounds. Young hunters better wake up or their hunting habitat will continue to shrink.
Pine Creek/Dave
 

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wingshot said:
I agree that the article is trying to put as happy a face on the issue as possible. The simple fact is that the hunting is not as good as it was in the 70's, 80's, or even the 90's. Sure, if you spend the time and locate the remaining decent cover the flush rate can be good but the ever shrinking size of that decent cover concentrates the group effort (hunters).
I've been disappointed overall with the efforts of the PGC in support of ruffed grouse over the past thirty years. No question in my mind that lack of suitable habitat is the primary problem. I know I spend a lot more hours per year scouting new spots and miles driven than I did in the 70's & 80's to see grouse.
I totally agree that the grouse aren't as widespread as they were in the 70's & 80's. I also believe we have turned the corner on creating early successional habitat on PA State Gamelands and that the next 20 years are going to be much better than the last 20 years were. PA_Sportman is doing his best to ensure that is the case.
 

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dap said:
I totally agree that the grouse aren't as widespread as they were in the 70's & 80's. I also believe we have turned the corner on creating early successional habitat on PA State Gamelands and that the next 20 years are going to be much better than the last 20 years were. PA_Sportman is doing his best to ensure that is the case.
X's 2.
 

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dap,
I agree Biologists like PGC's Eric Miller are helping a lot, they know forest management and along with some of our SFL biologist and foresters things in the forest management area are looking up, when we can keep the fool politicians out of the biologist way. My brother is an industrail forester, he was trained to mange forest to make money, I do wish the PGC would reach out to these highly experienced Industrial Foresters, in my brothers case he has 40 plus years of forest management experience, it would help our SGL & SFL foresters greatly.
Eric Miller has his hands full making sure forests are cut and managed properly, because of old wives tails believed by some of the PGC land supervisors and inforcement people along with underhanded politics these real PGC biologist have their hands full each and every day they go to work. My family has nothing but respect for these incredible PGC Biologist, they are saving our forest habitat a little at a time using proper forest management techniques.


Pine Creek/Dave
 

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Lyco Setter said:
dap said:
I totally agree that the grouse aren't as widespread as they were in the 70's & 80's. I also believe we have turned the corner on creating early successional habitat on PA State Gamelands and that the next 20 years are going to be much better than the last 20 years were. PA_Sportman is doing his best to ensure that is the case.
X's 2.


X's 3
 

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I can say where I hunt there has been alot of cutting going on the last five years. I feel very positive about that.
One thing I never understood about the environmentalists, arent trees a renewable resource? What could possibly be their argument against cutting?
 

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BlackStump,
You have completely missed the point, they want to stop
the use of the renewable resource, to undermine our American way of life. Communists own the environmental movement, same with Global Warming, it really does not exist, Co2 is plant food, and there are more forests in the USA now than when our country was 1st discovered. Industrail forest management made that possible.
Pine Creek/Dave
 

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BlackStump said:
I can say where I hunt there has been alot of cutting going on the last five years. I feel very positive about that.
One thing I never understood about the environmentalists, arent trees a renewable resource? What could possibly be their argument against cutting?
"Cutting" to the anti-environmentalists, as I call them, equals clearcuts and clearcuts equal remembered sights of pacific coast timbering.
Add in the difficulty that many of those agenda folks have from a limited concept of time and forest growth and any clearcut in the Apps. appears to be permanent.
As well, the Viewshed appears important to many and to the term old growth, they attach a near grandfatherly image.
Taken altogether and aided by the SELC spin, one ends up with, on a federal level, poor forest management.

Pennsylvania, or portions of the state more correctly, is lucky in regards to their section of the grouse range, the Gameland system and the attitude toward forest management on a state level.
Not everywhere is so blessed.
 

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Pine-Creek said:
BlackStump, there are more forests in the USA now than when our country was 1st discovered.
Pine Creek/Dave
Pine Creek,
I'm going to need a little help with this one. What are you using for evidence to support that statement?
 

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dap said:
wingshot said:
I agree that the article is trying to put as happy a face on the issue as possible. The simple fact is that the hunting is not as good as it was in the 70's, 80's, or even the 90's. Sure, if you spend the time and locate the remaining decent cover the flush rate can be good but the ever shrinking size of that decent cover concentrates the group effort (hunters).
I've been disappointed overall with the efforts of the PGC in support of ruffed grouse over the past thirty years. No question in my mind that lack of suitable habitat is the primary problem. I know I spend a lot more hours per year scouting new spots and miles driven than I did in the 70's & 80's to see grouse.
I totally agree that the grouse aren't as widespread as they were in the 70's & 80's. I also believe we have turned the corner on creating early successional habitat on PA State Gamelands and that the next 20 years are going to be much better than the last 20 years were. PA_Sportman is doing his best to ensure that is the case.

I sincerely hope you're right about the future here dap. The grouse hunters could use a break from PGC management. It seems were always 'betting on the come', so to speak, and grouse nirvana is always just ten years down the road. When we complain about lack of effort the finger pointing begins and the delegation of responsibility starts. It would be great to see a real change of attitude but I won't hold my breath waiting.
 

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Dave,
Oh no. Believe me I get it. I just cant understand what legitimate argument one could possibly have. Im a close study on the American way of life and the loathing of the antis. But then again, once uncle sugar is involved, commen sense is out the window. But back to the topic. Im encouraged by the amount of new habitat being created one way or the other.
 

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Dave, what SGLs are actually managed for multi-use? I don't know of any. Sure non-hunters use them but I don't know of any I've been to that are managed for non-hunting interests. I think they were just poorly managed for many years, at least for game birds. That seems to be changing and more effort is being put into quality habitat and food (I'm thinking pheasants & rabbits more than grouse here) AF least from what I see near me. Thank goodness they're getting rid of that worthless invasive autumn olive, what a failed experiment.

I do hope they put more widespread effort into grouse & woodcock habitat now too. In the last couple years I saw some wonderful large-scale timbering on some Delaware State Forest tracts that I'm hopeful will produce some grouse flushes for my dog and I beginning in a few years.

As for the comment about more forests now than when our country was first "discovered" I think you're off on that. The national forest system was basically created as a result of the timber barons wiping out most of the forests. At one point New Hampshire was practically treeless! Looking at it now that's just shocking to picture.

BTW, our NAVHDA chapter as well as our small training group trains regularly on state parks.
 

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RyanR,
There is no doubt that managing forests properly and harvesting trees at the correct time makes a Grouse population increase, my brother is an industrial forester,
he works for 84 Lumber and purchases lumber all over the world. In reality we have more forests in the USA right now than we did at the opening of our country, because of the industrial forest management, on both private and state owned property. However as Bill Palmer (Retired Pa Grouse Biologist) said we are now way behind on our cutting on PGC lands. We need to manage our forests properly. Politics has caused this problem. This old growth happens especially in the east of the state where our population is greatest. RyanR the SGL now allows snowmobile riding, horse riding, ATV riding areas ect, what do these multi usage people pay to use the SGL, they are not required to purchase hunting license to support the PGC. Multi usage is definitely happening now on the SGL, you might want to investigate what is really going on, most younger hunters pay little attention to this multi usage, some even condone it. Most of us older hunters lived in an era where no wheeled vehicles were allowed on the SGL, excepting that of the crippled Vets who wanted to hunt. IMO all multi usage should be eliminated, and if they do allow it, those people should need to purchase a hunting license to support the PGC for using the SGL and abide by the PGC laws.
Pine Creek/Dave
 

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"In reality we have more forests in the USA right now than we did at the opening of our country, because of the industrial forest management, on both private and state owned property." Okay but where are you getting that from, I think a few of us are interested in knowing that?

I didn't say multi-use wasn't happening or allowed, I asked what SGLs are managed for it because I don't see any efforts put into specifically managing for any activities other than hunting. And what SGLs have ATV riding areas set aside? I need to investigate what is going on? Where at, in the broad brush strokes of your exaggerations or what is actually allowed on SGLs and in what manner they're permitted? I agree about a use permit, people using PGC ranges need a permit or valid hunting license, other active uses (aside from just passively walking the roads or trails of an SGL) should require a permit or hunting license too.

BTW, the large timbering effort I saw in recent years was on large tracts of public forest land here in the East.
 

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Actually I'll answer it for you:

<span style="text-decoration: underline">HORSES AND BICYCLES</span>
For each region, there is a list of designated routes. These route designations, which total more than 1,000 miles, are in compliance with State Game Lands use regulations that went into effect on February 1, 2003. Under the new regulations, anyone who rides a non-motorized vehicle, conveyance or animal on State Game Lands must do so only on designated routes. Such riding activities will not be permitted, except on Sundays or on roads open to public travel, from the last Saturday in September to the third Saturday in January, and after 1 p.m. from the second Saturday in April to the last Saturday in May. This does not apply to anyone lawfully engaged in hunting, trapping or fishing on State Game Lands.

<span style="text-decoration: underline">SNOWMOBILE TRAILS</span>
The following list is of the designated routes for snowmobile use on State Game Lands. These routes are open, provided there is sufficient snow, from the third Sunday in January through April 1. Riders may only use snowmobiles that are registered and display valid registration decal as required under 75 Pa.C.S. § § 7711.1 and 7711.2

And this is the only permitted ATV use on State Game Lands:
The Pennsylvania Game Commission allows <span style="color: #FF9900">disabled hunters who possess a special permit from the Game Commission to hunt from a vehicle to use an ATV on designated State Game Land roads.</span> Roads are open for use by permitted persons from 14 days prior to the opening day of the hunting season to the closing day of the hunting season.
 
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