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fjp110 said:
there is no such thing as registration in Pa. the problem is you made an illegal transfer of a hand gun already. there is no great way to fix that. The only way to remedy that is to go to a gun shop and do a transfer. the problem is who do you transfer it from? the reality of this situation is you have a gun that "belongs" to the last owner on paper, not you. so if you commit a crime with that gun and wipe the prints off then drop it at the scene; the police will eventually end up at the last "paper" owner's door. He is the one that has really opened himself up to possible problems.
i can't beleave what i read here, this was not an illegal purchase if done enough years ago. i have 3 hand guns here that i bought about the same way. years ago in pa you could just buy a hand gun there was no paperwork to fill out.
 

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chopper57 said:
i can't beleave what i read here, this was not an illegal purchase if done enough years ago. i have 3 hand guns here that i bought about the same way. years ago in pa you could just buy a hand gun there was no paperwork to fill out.

I guess the question here is how many years. . .
 

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I brought several pistols from a private estate sale and the guy who was selling them gave me receipts for each with the serial numbers, the date of the sale and a signed statement that on the above date, he transfered ownership of each gun to me.
I knew the person so I knew the history and was not worried about them being stolen or used in a crime.
I still own them and listed them on an insurance rider should something happen to them.
 

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I purchased a springfield xd a few months ago I filled out two forms one for the back ground check and one because I was buying a pistol on the second form on the top of it reads psp application record of sale. in that form is all of my personal info even were I work and the gun I bought along with the serial number I asked the person where this form was going and he told me to the state ( pa) sounds like a gun register to me.
 

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The first form is a federal 4473 and the second is a state police record of sale,which is required for all handgun purchases/transfers in Pa.The store will keep the 4473 and a copy of Pa form,they'll also submit a copy to state police
 

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barebow said:
I purchased a springfield xd a few months ago I filled out two forms one for the back ground check and one because I was buying a pistol on the second form on the top of it reads psp application record of sale. in that form is all of my personal info even were I work and the gun I bought along with the serial number I asked the person where this form was going and he told me to the state ( pa) sounds like a gun register to me.
The illegal 'register' maintained by PSP is not all inclusive.

Anyone moving into PA w/ previously purchased handguns AND anyone who receives one from a parent, grandparent, or spouse does not require the completion of this form and will not be in the PSP database.

Anyone who purchased a handgun b/4 the initiation of this form, which is what stopped the 'face to face' transfer of hanguns between private parties [still legal w/ longarms] will not be in the PSP database.

Both of my revolvers were my fathers and mom gave them to me [legally] when he passed. Since he had a 'County Permit' during the 50's; the county did have the serial number of one of them but I don't think those old records were transfered to the PSP and both of these were purchased when face to face was legal so the PSP had no idea I have them and I would have a hard time proving ownership if I was pulled over and they checked the serial numbers...

The supreme court of PA has ruled that the PSP 'registry' is invalid, incomplete and illegal but the PSP is still doing it and will continue until a 2nd amendment supporter w/ the time and money to stop them steps up.
 

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Here is an interesting article I found online. It seems to explain the complex process a little better.

<span style="color: #3366FF">Laws make gun trail tracing difficult
By Mike Wereschagin
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Sunday, September 30, 2007


A slip of paper stood between Robert Bigi and a gun used in a shooting across the state line in Maryland.
In 1998, Bigi, 70, of Fayette County, sold the semiautomatic pistol. He provided record of the sale to Pennsylvania State Police, as state law requires when a handgun changes hands.

In spring 2005, Bigi received a call from a Cumberland, Md., sheriff's sergeant.

"He says to me, 'Do you own a semiautomatic Makarov pistol?'" said Bigi, a member of Firearm Owners Against Crime.

The pistol had been used in a domestic dispute in Maryland. A gun trace by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives turned up Bigi's name.

The paperwork proving Bigi sold the gun never left Pennsylvania. That wasn't an accident. State and federal laws prohibit law enforcement agencies from keeping comprehensive, up-to-date databases of gun owners.

The laws are intended to prevent government officials from knowing what kind and how many guns a person owns. Those same laws require a record of every gun sale to be kept by the seller. It's a system designed to be fragmented.

Investigators say these laws force them to trace each gun, an unreliable process that can take weeks and divert resources from an investigation. Gun rights advocates, however, say making it difficult to trace a gun is better than the alternative -- a national registry containing dossiers on law-abiding gun owners.

Maryland authorities found Bigi through the ATF tracking system, which by law can find only a gun's first owner. After that, police must follow the gun's trail by interviewing or requesting records from the gun's succession of owners.

Bigi was the hand-off between the ATF and the Maryland sheriffs.

A meticulous record-keeper, Bigi made copies of everything he gave to the Pennsylvania State Police, and offered them to the Maryland sergeant. If he hadn't, the sergeant told him, he would have been subpoenaed, Bigi said.


Even after the call, Bigi doesn't favor the sharing of gun ownership information between states. Instead, he said, authorities should share more criminal records -- such as protection-from-abuse orders -- and mental health records.

Transferring gun ownership records between states would create the sort of national registry that worries privacy advocates.

"That's (gun owners') biggest fear -- the government knowing who has each and every gun," said Republican state Rep. Robert Godshall of Montgomery County.

Godshall wrote the law banning a Pennsylvania gun registry, which passed during the 1995 special legislative session on crime. Gun owners cited the law in a 2000 lawsuit, saying the state police database of handgun sales constituted an illegal registry. Commonwealth Court Judge James R. Kelley wrote the majority opinion in 2002, siding with the state.

The records are used "as a starting point for investigators when a handgun used in a crime is recovered by police," said state police spokesman Jack Lewis.

Though records don't cross state lines, guns often do. The ATF tried to trace 9,092 guns found in Pennsylvania in 2006. It succeeded in finding the original owners of 5,607 of those guns. Among those first owners, 1,200 were from out of state, according to the bureau.

How the handguns crossed state lines -- federal law bans interstate handgun sales -- is a mystery that has to be unraveled one gun at a time, and only if local police invest their own resources.

"Once we trace the gun to the initial purchaser, the record -- the paper trail of that gun -- ends right there," said John Hageman, an ATF spokesman. The 1968 Gun Control Act, the same act that outlaws interstate gun sales, prevents the ATF from tracing past the first purchase, he said.

The federal act requires gun dealers to keep records of any guns they sell, however, and gun rights advocates say that's enough for police who want to trace a weapon, even in states that don't maintain a sales database like Pennsylvania's.

"When a handgun is purchased at a sporting goods store, a record of that sale is there. It's open for police protection, and it's there as long as that store is in operation," Godshall said.

Investigators say a registry would save time spent tracking down gun owners and requesting records from gun shops across the state and country.

"It can be upwards of a couple of weeks, depending on how recent the sale was, or even longer," said Pittsburgh police Sgt. Mike Tracy. "It bogs down the system, it slows down the investigation. We have to do a lot of interviews, exhaust a lot of different avenues," often only to learn the gun was stolen.

"We just have to work around it," said Capt. Bret Waggoner, director of special investigations in the state police Bureau of Criminal Investigations. "The only thing you can do is go back to the original purchaser. You go back, you interview him. 'Tell us what you did with that weapon.' But he's not obligated to tell you."

Tracking guns isn't an effective way to catch criminals, said former Marine Kim Stolfer, firearms instructor and chairman of Firearm Owners Against Crime.

"If those people who address this are asked a question -- prove how this is going to help -- their approach falls apart," Stolfer said. "When you boil it all down, it does not do anything but distract the administration of justice from pursuing the ... criminal. I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, I'm just saying there are" more effective tactics.

Those tactics include making sure prosecutors squeeze the maximum possible sentence from gun crime convictions, and lowering recidivism rates to reduce the number of repeat offenders, Stolfer said.

"The shallowness of addressing the complexity of this problem is sometimes disturbing," Stolfer said.
Laws make gun trail tracing difficult </span>
 
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