[Joe D.]

I'm just getting into the flintlock scene so pardon my questions. I see and hear a lot of people that have purchased a Lyman deer stalker and it seems most shoot a PRB instead of a conical style bullet. I believe they are a 1:48" twist. I'm really considering purchasing a deer stalker, but wanted to know if you can shoot both PRB and conicals out of this gun with the same level of accuracy and penetration? I know a lot depends on patches, powder, bullet weights, etc, but has anyone found this rate of twist more accurate with a PRB versus a conical? Also, regarding hunting whitetails, would the conical have better penetration then a PRB due to the expansion factor?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Retired_Rusty]

A PRB barrel is typically 1:56, 1:60, 1:66 or 1:70. A conical or sabot barrel is 1:24, 1:28, 1:32, or a smidgen more. I believe the 1:48 was chosen by TC, CVA, etc. as a middle of the road barrel to shoot both conicals/sabots and PRB. That way they filled the nitch of both shooters.

I know guys that shoot both PRB and conicals (Honady PA conical & GP bullet) and even powerbelts out of 1:48s, fairly accurately.

Whitetails have been killed by PRB for 250+ years. The minie and other conicals showed up after that. Both types will kill a whitetail, as long as the shooter does his/her part. You punch a 1/2" (.50 cal.) hole or two through a lung, liver, heart or other vital organ, a deer will lay down soon, and seccumb.

 

[Blue Bird]

I've shot both from my T/C Renegade. I'll give the nod to the conicals for accuracy, however don't sell the PRB short. It too will show decent accuracy in a 1/48 twist barrel. Since now a days all I shoot is a semi-custom flinter with a 1/60 or so twist, I shoot nothing but PRB's. I prefer them from a traditional standpoint, plus it uses less lead to make a round ball than a conical.

 

[dpms]

1/48 is a compromise twist. Not great for either PRB or concials. Lighter, and therefore shorter conicals usually shoot very good out of a 1/48. 245 grain to 300 grain tops for conicals.

 

[mossie]

I have a Lyman Deerstalker in .54 with the 1/48 twist. I bought it because I wanted to shoot ball exclusively. I wanted a carbine style rifle to use in thick areas but still have the ability to reach out to 100 if needed.


It will group very well with patched ball up to about 65 grains. 50 or 60 grains is the real sweet spot and will drill the center out of a 50 yard target with that load volume. When you get above 70 grains it starts to open up and at 80 and 90 it's just not what I was hoping for. At 50 yards with 80 grains it grouped well enough to take a deer but it just would not group better than 3-4". It was horrible; and at 100 yards it was all over. I spent the rest of the time drilling whatever I aimed at with the 50 grain load; it did shoot very well at that charge. I thought the 1/48 twist would be just the ticket for the 24" barrel but it's just too fast for ball at the 80 or 90 grains I was hoping for.


I like the rifle and 60 grains is what I will shoot in it but my slower twist ball guns beat the pants off it with 80 to 90 grains. I don't like conical bullets and not too fond of sabots either. It might shoot a conical but most of them are pretty heavy and if you never shot a 400 grain conical in a short barreled rifle I am not sure which end is taking the beating.

 

[Pa.Bone]

I prefer a RB from my T/C Hawkens and it shoots decent groups. I have so many round balls that I have made over the years it just makes sense for me to shoot them up. I have an eight ball loading block that I carry hunting and with the patch and ball ready to load they are also quick and easy.

 

[GermanHillHunter]

I have a Lyman trade rifle with a 1:48 twist and shoot pa conicals and it is extremely accurate and thumps deer. 70 gr 2f down the tube.

 

[Jerbo]

I have shot Muzzle Loader Rifles since I was a kid, but I never owned one before and I never hunted with one before, since I never had tags for hunting muzzle loader before the past couple of years.
My experience is limited to what I have done with TC Hawken 50 / 54 Caliber rifles.
Truthfully I have yet to harvest a deer with either rifle, I own one of each.

I have both round balls and conicals for each rifle and the only thing I can say is that I don't use a patch with a conical bullet. The bullets I have were sealed in a foam package with bees wax and they go down the barrel - once you get them started, very easily.

I have shot the rifle at 25, 50 and 100 yards and I can attest that the conicals seems to be more accurate and they expand upon impact and I am very impressed with them.
Unfortunately the rifles I bought are not prime examples of neither accuracy or are in pristine condition. I will need to spend some time removing the lead fouling from the rifling of the barrel of the 54 caliber Hawken - after the season is over.
Truthfully, the barrel was full of rust and I spent weeks with a brass brush, Hoppe's #9 and patches, swabbing out the barrel. Soaking the barrels with PB Blaster.

Just as the seller claimed, after a couple of shots, the rust disappeared.
I actually enjoy shooting the 54 and clean up is a breeze with just some Dawn Dish Detergent, Hoppe's #9 and some elbow grease - while shooting the Conicals.

I normally use 90 - 100 gr of 2F black powder.
My neighbors told me to fire / unload it every night!
I've never had a misfire or a problem, following the rules forum members and internet advice that was given to me.

Now round balls just seems like a pain, having to use a patch, having fouling in the barrel from the patch lube. I might even use my Hawken Muzzleloader next year in deer rifle season, it's that enjoyable to carry and hunt with..

The only downside I can see is only having just one shot, having to fire it to unload it every time you hunt with it. Having to clean it as soon as you get home, after hunting - every day!

 

[holedigger]

I have a TC Firestorm w/ a 1:48 twist barrel. Never shot enough conicals to get a good read on them. I found that my gun likes it fast with Powerbelts (150 gr BP or 777 - this gun is rated for 150 gr's - most flinters are not!), and best RB loads were around 80 gr's BP 2F. FWIW.

 

[tdd]

I don't want to leave this hanging out here for someone who doesn't know better to read and do something dangerous...

Never.....EVER.....use 4F (FFFFg) powder for a main charge. EVER.

I would assume the OP meant 3F, or 2F. 100gr of 4F down a barrel with a projectile on it is a bad day in the making.

Second, PRB's do not foul badly. I can shoot PRB's all day long. If I'm using a fat-based lube (bear grease, for example), I will get 3-5 shots before I need to clean. Conicals will do no different. Most will go no more than 3 before cleaning is required.

Shooting PRB's with spit or Hoppes 9 lubed patches (not the Hoppes 9 you get at just any store, there's a blackpowder formulation), I can....and have....shot 40+ shots without cleaning. Not even one cleaning patch between shots. No loss in accuracy, can load easily, no issues whatsoever.

I will use bear grease lube when hunting because it'll stay lubed and not eventually dry out like spit or Hoppes will. Mink oil is another common one folks use. Those do leave fouling and need a clean up every 4-5 shots, yes.

There's ways to make using a PRB no problem at all. Things like loading blocks and speed loader tubes are great things to have for the PRB shooting hunter.

 

[good ole boy]

Great points TDD.Sides,messin with the balls and patches and lube is half the fun.I too don,t have the fouling problem he is incurring.That,s why inlines were invented.I think half the people should stay that route.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

given similar powder charges, between a PRB and a conical, the ball normally launches at higher velocity. As long as PRB velocity is appreciably higher, the trajectory is less and the ft lbs of energy stay high. The problem, is that a PRB launched at sonic speeds slows dramatically due to air resistance and the energy levels reach a point out around 80 to 100 yds where the energy in ft lbs is about equal. Beyond 100 yds, the conical has it all over the PRB. One because the PRB slows so much and the conical does not. While it may start slower and have a higher trajectory, out near the 100 yd mark, the conical packs more wallop. Stats I read somewhere, indicate the average deer harvested in Penns woods, is shot at 30 yards. At that distance the PRB has the advantage. Unless you are hunting open territory where you may get a shot at 100 yds or more, it really does not make much difference.

Some people have the mistaken idea that they can extend their PRB range proportionately by increasing the charge, but it does not work that way. They may get an extra 15 yrds, but that is about it. Better to go with a larger bore and larger PRB or a conical

 

[burghwolfe]

As a relatively new flintlocker, I am curious to know what the reason is for not using FFFF as the main charge. I don't do it, but I am curious as to why it is a bad idea.

Mike

 

[Jerbo]

4 F is more explosive, will damage the barrel or blow up the gun.
Yep - I made a mistake said 4 F when I meant 2F...
The rifling in my barrel is so fouled from years of someone not cleaning it properly and not using a patched ball that it is going to take some serious work to get the lead out.
A patched ball with a .015 patch, won't even fit in the bore with a .530 ball..

The purpose of the rifling is to give the bullet a spin which stabilizes the bullet.
I don't think a round ball benefits from that spin as much because it's frontal area is not aerodynamic like a Conical.

 

[410-er]

FFFFg is the same powder as Fg.The difference is the size of the grain and the screen it fell thru.Kindling burns faster than logs but is still wood.

A RB will shoot good out of a 1:48.I get great accuracy with my 1:66 Lyman and also get great groups with my TC 32 cal Cherokee that has a 1:32 twist.I found the rate of twist has MORE to do with the ability to burn more powder and still give accuracy.Rifle GROOVE depth has more to do with projectile choice.RB's like deeper rifling to handle a patch ball and conicals like shallow to seal the gasses behind it.
I have killed deer with RB's and conicals. I have killed deer with 45,50,54,and 58 caliber. NONE were any more dead regardless of what caliber OR projectile was used.
Use what gives the tightest groups AND hits where you aim on that 1st shot out of a clean bore.
A deer with a hole in the heart or lungs just plain ain't gonna live!
There are lots of pros and cons on both.I can get 1 1/2" or less groups with both.
The biggest reason that I shoot RB over conicals is the fact that they can and do shift off the powder charge if carried with the muzzle pointed DOWN.A coworker had it happen to the point that the tip of the conical was actually at the end of the muzzle.THATS DANGEROUS IF FIRED!
If you can discipline yourself to check the seating often and carry "muzzle up",your fine.
Killing a deer has MORE to do with the guy on the other end of the muzzle!

 

[DonO]

I have a T/C Renegade in .50 that has a 1:48. The "correct" powder charge for a round ball, back when I started hunting was 100 grains FFg. I found out however that it patterned like a shotgun until i dropped to 80 grains FFg and it improved dramatically. When we were allowed to switch from round balls to conicals I did, and I shoot the 350 grain T/C Maxi Hunters or some times 320 grain T/C Maxi-Ball. They shoot well and I like them. With the mass they retain energy well and the group decently. My sons and I use them in the 50s and we don't find the recoil to be too bad. The Maxi-Hunter is built for expansion and the Maxi-Ball is intended for penetration. My experience with them bears that out. Maxi-Balls have gone straight through the deer I have shot with them and Maxi-Hunters have expanded and been found under the hide on the off side. They both shoot well and I really don't have a preference between the two because the deer shot with them have all been found easily.

I have a Lyman Great Plains in 54 with the 1:48 twist. I bought it specifically to use round balls. I can blow up water-filled milk jugs at 100 yards with it so to me that's hunting worthy. I do plan to spend some more time with it to see what it can do accuracy wise with different size balls, patches and different powder charges and I may even try some conicals through it, however I too wonder about the recoil from a chunk of lead that heavy. To abbreviate this, in my experience with a 1:48 the conicals have the edge.

 

[tdd]

A Great Plains in 1:48? Are you sure?

The GP Rifle was 1:60 or 1:66.....forget which. RB twist barrel.

The GP Hunter, I believe, is 1:32 for conicals.

I wasn't aware of any Great Plains barrels in 1:48.

The TC Renegade (I have a 50 cal Renegade that my father now uses) is 1:48. 80gr 3F shot well with about anything. Not "wow let me brag about these groups" well, but plenty good enough to kill deer. I shot a doe at 90 yards offhand with that rifle, so I think it shoots.

 

[DonO]

You are absolutely correct it is 1:60 not 1:48 on the 54 Great Plains Rifle. The 50 Great Plains we have is the 1:32 Hunter.

 

[Joe D.]

I just wanted to say thanks for everyone's input. I've learned a great deal reading all these threads and greatly appreciate the time, effort to write each one. Now I'm pondering whether I should go with the Great Plains over the Deer Stalker and whether I should move up to the .54 caliber. I know there is no perfect rifle for every situation and it really does come down to preference. Price point is also a big consideration.

Not to detract form the original question, but do most folks carry shooting sticks with them when Flint Lock hunting? I assume most of the hunting I would do would be spot and stalk.

Keep the comments coming.

 

[GermanHillHunter]

I just wanted to say thanks for everyone's input. I've learned a great deal reading all these threads and greatly appreciate the time, effort to write each one. Now I'm pondering whether I should go with the Great Plains over the Deer Stalker and whether I should move up to the .54 caliber. I know there is no perfect rifle for every situation and it really does come down to preference. Price point is also a big consideration.

Not to detract form the original question, but do most folks carry shooting sticks with them when Flint Lock hunting? I assume most of the hunting I would do would be spot and stalk.

Keep the comments coming.

When I sit in my blinds I always take my monopod with me. When sneaking I don't.