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Discussion Starter #1
This topic is being discussed in the Wisconsin thread, where the huge amount of politics in Pa were pointed out, as is now the case in Wisconsin also. It was shown that Alt was selected by the Governor of Pa at the time, Ridge, to accomplish his goals of herd reduction. Being the boss of dcnr and also having command over pgc, many see his steering Pa deer management as nothing but uncalled for political intereference. There has also been actions taken by dcnr and the governor like removing commissioners and with-holding monies, not to mention sanctions on land acquistions in the past. Threats of lawsuits made to force their compliance. It seems some wish to further disucss these issues. So we can use this thread for that. Here is one good article I found about this same governor appointing the then executive director. Is all of this appropriate?

Any other political deer management issues can be discussed here.



POLITICS AS USUAL
THE NEW EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE PENNSYLVANIA GAME COMMISSION ASSUMED HIS
OFFICE AT THE AGENCY'S HARRISBURG HEADQUARTERS ON MONDAY.

Friday, May 07, 1999 Page: 1B

Politics as usual
The new executive director of the Pennsylvania Game Commission assumed his office at the agency's Harrisburg headquarters on MondayThe appointment is, in understatement, controversial.
Vern R. Ross, 58, of Camp Hill, succeeded Don C. Madl as the agency's executive director.
Madl retired April 30 after 37 years with the commission.
Madl is out, Ross is in, and Ross will have his hands full.
Never has the commission faced such a rocky road, and never has the agency's executive director faced such animosity from sportsmen and sportsmen's groups.
Hunters are crying that there are too few deer, that small game hunting is poor, and that the commission is doing too little to benefit wildlife and its habitat.
Hunters are angry; opinions on this matter are heated.
On top of that, the word out is that the commission's new director was a political appointment, that he has little or no experience in the field of wildlife management.
Resentment is the result of the lament that it is "politics as usual" in Harrisburg.
The claim is not unfounded.
Governor Tom Ridge appointed Ross director of his Sportsmen's Advisory Council on Oct. 11, 1995.
Despite the governor's appointment, Ross has virtually no academic background or experience that would prepare him to operate an agency such as the game commission- an agency funded primarily by hunting license sales, an agency with about 700 employees and an almost $70 million budget.
While it is not known what advice Ross may have offered the governor, he and the council have not had an obvious impact on the field sports.
But Ross and the council did interview and recommend four of the current eight game commissioners who were consequently appointed by Ridge.
And those same commissioners who received the nod of approval from Ross and the council voted to name Ross to fill the executive director's post.
Ross was among eight finalists for the position among 37 potential candidates.
Presumably, a few of those 37 candidates possessed at least modest experience in the field of wildlife management.
No matter. Ross still managed to prevail as the commissioner's No. 1 choice.
Originally from New Kensington, Ross is a graduate of Valley High School. He served in the U.S. Army from 1959 to 1962, then worked for 37 years in a variety of administrative positions that included work in the food industry.
The only professional experience Ross has with wildlife, wildlife management and with hunting and sportsmen's groups is through his stint as the governor's adviser.
I was not involved with the game commissioner's interview process. I did not get to peruse the resumes of the 37 people who applied for the job.
But it's hard to believe that a candidate with more experience than Ross did not eagerly toss a hat into the ring.
That's in the past now, like it or not.
Even if Ross were no more than a political appointment, he has taken over the helm of the agency that manages wildlife in one of the top hunting states in the nation.
Ross faces a rocky road.
He will have his hands full.
George Smith is The Times Leader outdoors writer.

Read more: http://archives.timesleader.com/1999/199...l#ixzz2FzRUcokq
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Publicly stated suggested routes of action for dcnr to take from their Conservation & Natural Resources Advisory Council to ensure pgc complied with less deer demands.



"(1) D.C.N.R. should continue to work with P.G.C. to promote effective and strategic
management of the deer herd and to reduce their numbers in order to promote
forest regeneration.
(2) D.C.N.R. should support P.G.C.’s Deer Management Assistance Program but
should advocate for expansion of the program’s availability to private
landowners and simplification of the application process in order to promote
landowner participation in the program.
(3) D.C.N.R. should advocate and support educational outreach concerning forest
regeneration issues as they relate to Pennsylvania’s deer population.
(4) The Secretary should request the Governor’s office to convene an
interdepartmental Deer Management Task Force consisting of leadership at the
secretary level from, at a minimum, D.C.N.R., Department of Environmental
Protection, Department of Agriculture, and P.G.C., in order to address deer
population and deer-related impact issues.
(5) If P.G.C. programs do not effectively reduce deer populations, then D.C.N.R and
other landowners should consider necessary <span style="font-weight: bold">legal and legislative action </span>to
protect the resources."
 

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Great topic.

The real reasons for herd reduction doesn't have one single thing to do with herd health and everything to do with the money.

Dirty politics started it. Only politics can end it.
 

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Why keep repeating what you've already been shown to have been erroneous info on another thread here???

Ridge did not appoint Alt to anything, as he has no authority over whom the PGC Board of Commissioners appoint to hold a position within PGC. Nor did he appoint Vern Ross to be PGC Ex. Director, which was also done by the Board of Commissioners.

A Governor can nominate citizens to positions as Commissionrs on various PA agencies. The PA Senate must then confirm them, or they cannot fill the position.

Such repeated ranting only reinforces the obvious: You apparently lack <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> understanding of the facts and issues.
 

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Politics was and still is a part of the process. That is why the PGC has a legislative liason. Political pressure is no doubt used with some success. Many times, pressure is applied and the PGC holds firm.

Whether we all like it or not, politics is one factor of many factors that are weighed within the agency. Some despise a implied political connection between Alt and herd reduction, yet then support political pressure to allow for more deer.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Dennyf I was shown nothing. Links were provided to support my contention. Nothing to dismiss it at all other than one person saying it is not true, though clearly it is. And that will remain my position until you can prove otherwise, as was done to the contrary with supporting statements quoted.

But the reason I brought this topic here, is because Mod. said to get the Wisconsin thread back on topic, so that meant this issue could not be discussed over there further. Even though there was clearly still interest in talking about it, including a post made by you since.

Stating the facts simply because you don't like them being pointed out has nothing to do with "ranting".

And if I know so little, surely you can prove it utilizing other means than gritting your teeth and stomping your feet, such as links, quotes, data....?
 

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DennyF said:
Why keep repeating what you've already been shown to have been erroneous info on another thread here???

Ridge did not appoint Alt to anything, as he has no authority over whom the PGC Board of Commissioners appoint to hold a position within PGC. Nor did he appoint Vern Ross to be PGC Ex. Director, which was also done by the Board of Commissioners.

A Governor can nominate citizens to positions as Commissionrs on various PA agencies. The PA Senate must then confirm them, or they cannot fill the position.

Such repeated ranting only reinforces the obvious: You apparently lack any understanding of the facts and issues.
This has been pointed out to him before, but since it doesnt fit with his thoughts and Everland, he chooses to ignore it.
 

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keystone-hunter said:
Publicly stated suggested routes of action for dcnr to take from their Conservation & Natural Resources Advisory Council to ensure pgc complied with less deer demands.



"(1) D.C.N.R. should continue to work with P.G.C. to promote effective and strategic
management of the deer herd and to reduce their numbers in order to promote
forest regeneration.
(2) D.C.N.R. should support P.G.C.’s Deer Management Assistance Program but
should advocate for expansion of the program’s availability to private
landowners and simplification of the application process in order to promote
landowner participation in the program.
(3) D.C.N.R. should advocate and support educational outreach concerning forest
regeneration issues as they relate to Pennsylvania’s deer population.
(4) The Secretary should request the Governor’s office to convene an
interdepartmental Deer Management Task Force consisting of leadership at the
secretary level from, at a minimum, D.C.N.R., Department of Environmental
Protection, Department of Agriculture, and P.G.C., in order to address deer
population and deer-related impact issues.
(5) If P.G.C. programs do not effectively reduce deer populations, then D.C.N.R and
other landowners should consider necessary legal and legislative action to
protect the resources."
Publicly stated how, and by who?
 

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R.W.J said:
DennyF said:
Why keep repeating what you've already been shown to have been erroneous info on another thread here???

Ridge did not appoint Alt to anything, as he has no authority over whom the PGC Board of Commissioners appoint to hold a position within PGC. Nor did he appoint Vern Ross to be PGC Ex. Director, which was also done by the Board of Commissioners.

A Governor can nominate citizens to positions as Commissionrs on various PA agencies. The PA Senate must then confirm them, or they cannot fill the position.

Such repeated ranting only reinforces the obvious: You apparently lack any understanding of the facts and issues.
This has been pointed out to him before, but since it doesnt fit with his thoughts and Everland, he chooses to ignore it.
Or maybe he ignored it because what was pointed out wasn't true?

Just a thought.
 

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keystone-hunter said:
Publicly stated suggested routes of action for dcnr to take from their Conservation & Natural Resources Advisory Council to ensure pgc complied with less deer demands.

(5) If P.G.C. programs do not effectively reduce deer populations, then D.C.N.R and
other landowners should consider necessary legal and legislative action to
protect the resources."

Where is this taken from?
 

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huntingjess34 said:
Great topic.

The real reasons for herd reduction doesn't have one single thing to do with herd health and everything to do with the money.

Dirty politics started it. Only politics can end it.

+1
 

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I found a good article. Yes. The GOVERNOR did hand-pick Alt====

""As a deer program leader who wore a Kevlar vest while selling his changes to Keystone State sportsmen, Alt was intimately aware of how state agencies function and their vital—but often tenuous—relationship with hunters. “When Gov. Tom Ridge asked me to take over Pennsylvania’s deer program,” says Alt, “I told him, ‘Do you mean run it or fix it? Because if you want me to just run it, the answer is no. If you want me to fix it, I’ll consider—but it will end my career.” Alt took the job and retired five years later, citing political pressure.

The experience gave Alt a keen understanding of the mix of biology, politics, and people skills at the heart of game management in the new millennium. “The agency is like any institution—resistant to change and mired in tradition. Having the governor behind me meant I could create a team from the outside, jumping the normal chain of command. Once we had a plan, we had to sell it to roomfuls of hunters also mired in tradition and very capable of humiliating a biologist suggesting change. I saw colleagues virtually destroyed by the process.” ""

http://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/h...r-cz?page=0%2C1
 

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Notice;

“When Gov. Tom Ridge asked me to take over Pennsylvania’s deer program,”

and

"Having the governor behind me meant I could create a team from the outside, jumping the normal chain of command."

Direct quotes firsthand from Alt himself.
 

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keystone-hunter said:
This topic is being discussed in the Wisconsin thread, where the huge amount of politics in Pa were pointed out, as is now the case in Wisconsin also. It was shown that Alt was selected by the Governor of Pa at the time, Ridge, to accomplish his goals of herd reduction. Being the boss of dcnr and also having command over pgc, many see his steering Pa deer management as nothing but uncalled for political intereference. There has also been actions taken by dcnr and the governor like removing commissioners and with-holding monies, not to mention sanctions on land acquistions in the past. Threats of lawsuits made to force their compliance. It seems some wish to further disucss these issues. So we can use this thread for that. Here is one good article I found about this same governor appointing the then executive director. Is all of this appropriate?

Any other political deer management issues can be discussed here.



POLITICS AS USUAL
THE NEW EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE PENNSYLVANIA GAME COMMISSION ASSUMED HIS
OFFICE AT THE AGENCY'S HARRISBURG HEADQUARTERS ON MONDAY.

Friday, May 07, 1999 Page: 1B

Politics as usual
The new executive director of the Pennsylvania Game Commission assumed his office at the agency's Harrisburg headquarters on MondayThe appointment is, in understatement, controversial.
Vern R. Ross, 58, of Camp Hill, succeeded Don C. Madl as the agency's executive director.
Madl retired April 30 after 37 years with the commission.
Madl is out, Ross is in, and Ross will have his hands full.
Never has the commission faced such a rocky road, and never has the agency's executive director faced such animosity from sportsmen and sportsmen's groups.
Hunters are crying that there are too few deer, that small game hunting is poor, and that the commission is doing too little to benefit wildlife and its habitat.
Hunters are angry; opinions on this matter are heated.
On top of that, the word out is that the commission's new director was a political appointment, that he has little or no experience in the field of wildlife management.
Resentment is the result of the lament that it is "politics as usual" in Harrisburg.
The claim is not unfounded.
Governor Tom Ridge appointed Ross director of his Sportsmen's Advisory Council on Oct. 11, 1995.
Despite the governor's appointment, Ross has virtually no academic background or experience that would prepare him to operate an agency such as the game commission- an agency funded primarily by hunting license sales, an agency with about 700 employees and an almost $70 million budget.
While it is not known what advice Ross may have offered the governor, he and the council have not had an obvious impact on the field sports.
But Ross and the council did interview and recommend four of the current eight game commissioners who were consequently appointed by Ridge.
And those same commissioners who received the nod of approval from Ross and the council voted to name Ross to fill the executive director's post.
Ross was among eight finalists for the position among 37 potential candidates.
Presumably, a few of those 37 candidates possessed at least modest experience in the field of wildlife management.
No matter. Ross still managed to prevail as the commissioner's No. 1 choice.
Originally from New Kensington, Ross is a graduate of Valley High School. He served in the U.S. Army from 1959 to 1962, then worked for 37 years in a variety of administrative positions that included work in the food industry.
The only professional experience Ross has with wildlife, wildlife management and with hunting and sportsmen's groups is through his stint as the governor's adviser.
I was not involved with the game commissioner's interview process. I did not get to peruse the resumes of the 37 people who applied for the job.
But it's hard to believe that a candidate with more experience than Ross did not eagerly toss a hat into the ring.
That's in the past now, like it or not.
Even if Ross were no more than a political appointment, he has taken over the helm of the agency that manages wildlife in one of the top hunting states in the nation.
Ross faces a rocky road.
He will have his hands full.
George Smith is The Times Leader outdoors writer.

Read more: http://archives.timesleader.com/1999/199...l#ixzz2FzRUcokq
now thats funny! using an outdoor writers column as if it were some kind of study!

after adimitting he didn't see any resumes, and says "it's hard to beleive" he ends the article with "ross faces a rocky road" and "he will have his hands full." now tell me it's not just an opinion piece.
 

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Furtaker Ron said:
Notice;

“When Gov. Tom Ridge asked me to take over Pennsylvania’s deer program,”

and

"Having the governor behind me meant I could create a team from the outside, jumping the normal chain of command."

Direct quotes firsthand from Alt himself.

When they jumped the 'normal chain of command', they also jumped the hunters and the science in the process.
 

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Furtaker Ron said:
Notice;

“When Gov. Tom Ridge asked me to take over Pennsylvania’s deer program,”

and

"Having the governor behind me meant I could create a team from the outside, jumping the normal chain of command."

Direct quotes firsthand from Alt himself.
if we're to beleive everything in that article i guess this too is true...

"his overhaul of pa deer management is today viewed as a huge success."

another opinion/editorial article with quotes taken out of context, or just plain false. but if it fit's your agenda.....

you're probably one of those who beleived alt didn't know what a browse line was either, huh?
 

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Wendel707 said:
Looks like alot of facts in that piece too yellodog. Not convenient though huh?
no, it's mostly opinion of the outdoor writer. point out some "facts" then prove thats what they are.
 

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He probably also believes in the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny. Oh yeah, and John Eveland.
 
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