[zimmerstutzen]

Loggy made the remark about stuffing bullets down the muzzle of centerfire guns in a past thread. I finally found a photo of a Pope muzzleloader centerfire cartridge gun.

poke here: http://www.pbase.com/halp/jersey_city_pope

Harry guaranteed that when muzzleloaded his guns would shoot ten shot groups less than 2 inchs at 200 meters. That is less than MOA. It was Sharps and Remington rifles that loaded this way that beat the Irish Team at Creedmore.

So here is a question for you. Is such a rifle legal for the early muzzleloader season?

 

[hunt/fish365]

OK I will ask. How do you load a cartridge from the muzzle?

 

[frontier gander]

looks like a drop block to me.

 

[bob1961]

why would it have a cartrige then need loaded from the muzzle

.......bob

....

 

[410-er]

That rife would not be legal as it is a 32 cal.Regs say 44 cal and larger.

 

[Loggy]

yup...not legal.

<u>Flintlock Muzzleloader Season:</u> Flintlock ignition, single-barrel
long gun, 44 caliber or larger, or 50 caliber or larger handgun, using
single projectile ammunition. It is unlawful to use telescopic sights.
Peep sights are permitted.

<u>October Antlerless Muzzleloader Season:</u> Any single-barrel
muzzleloader long gun with flintlock, percussion or in-line ignition,
44 caliber or larger, or 50 caliber or larger handgun. Scope
sights permitted.

 

[bob1961]

i like how they stuck .44 cal or larger in there and not .44 cal bullet or larger....most if not all .50 inlines shoot a sabot with a .44 cal pistol bullet from them....if they just stated .50 projectiles then that would leave them out or they had to shoot round balls

.........bob

....

 

[great white hunter]

yup...not legal.

Flintlock Muzzleloader Season: Flintlock ignition, single-barrel
long gun, 44 caliber or larger, or 50 caliber or larger handgun, using
single projectile ammunition. It is unlawful to use telescopic sights.
Peep sights are permitted.

October Antlerless Muzzleloader Season: Any single-barrel
muzzleloader long gun with flintlock, percussion or in-line ignition,
44 caliber or larger, or 50 caliber or larger handgun. Scope
sights permitted.

 

[turkey4life]

i like how they stuck .44 cal or larger in there and not .44 cal bullet or larger....most if not all .50 inlines shoot a sabot with a .44 cal pistol bullet from them....if they just stated .50 projectiles then that would leave them out or they had to shoot round balls

.........bob

....

or they could use power belts and still shoot deer at 150+ yds

 

[zimmerstutzen]

The reason to have a cartridge and load from the muzzle is accuracy. Such guns shot 200 meter groups that were half the size if the bullet were loaded from the muzzle.

Really why do Knight discs require a carrier to hold a primer, and why do some inlines require a small pistol case to hold the primer. Is a removeable breech plug that holds the primer similare to useing a cartridge to hold the primer.

 

[brubincam]

most cartridge rifles could be muzzle loaded--would they be legal for the first season-----

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Right. Did you see the false muzzle and bullet seating accessory for the gun made by Pope. It swages the lead bullet into the rifling in a way that doesn't permit the bullet to cant or go in cockeyed.

Assuming the caliber met the minimum, the question is what does the law and regs say to define a muzzleloader. Just that it load from the muzzle. certanly not everything, because the percussion caps and cartridge carriers or 209 primers can be inserted in the breech.

 

[Loggy]

It designation as a cartridge loaded centerfire rifle would make it illegal no matter how you insert the ammo..

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Why loggy, what definition, regulation or statute do you refer to. After all if it loads from the muzzle what difference does it make It isn't using a cartridge. The bullet would have to be fixed in the shell case to be a cartridge. Just like 209 in lines are also centerfire. The Pa law doesn't define centerfire, or muzzleloader. I believe the federal firearms laws make reference to "fixed ammunition." If the bullet is not in the shell case it isn't fixed. Some inlines use centerfire pistol cases as primer carriers for ignition. Why would anybody assume that a gun can not be both centerfire and muzzleloading? a gun can be percussion and not be a muzzleloader, such as a cap and ball revolver, or can be percussion and a breech loader such as a 1863 Sharps or the early Maynards. Flint and breech loader such as the Ferguson rifle of the 1770's. If the powder must be loaded from the muzzle that can be done too with a Pope rifle.

 

[Woods walker]

And therein lies the rub, there is a difference between "can" and "must.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

John, where is the rule that says powder AND bullet must be loaded from the muzzle.

There is also no definition of centerfire. Centerfire originally referred to where the striker hit the case. There were pin fire, rim fire and centerfire as well as the Morris primed cartridges that could be struck either rim fire or centerfire and be discharged. I have a Wesson rifle that will fire either 38 XL rimfire or 38 XL centerfire having two firing pins.
Some inlines use 25 caliber centerfire cartridge cases as primer carriers to ignite the powder. In such rifles, as well as the 209 primed rifles, the striker is centerfire. So they are centerfire ignition muzzleloaders.

I have seen a custom in line that used a 22 RF blank to ignite the powder. In fact some in lines can have the powder and ball inserted from either the breech or the muzzle.
Where in the statute or regulations is there a difference between "can" and "must"

 

[Woods walker]

I am not going to get into one of your arguments, if you think you can do it, hunt with a breech loader in the muzzleloader season and let me know how you make out. Words have meaning, muzzle doesn't mean breech. I guess the PGC was mistaken for believing hunters knew the front end of a gun from the back end. That said I guess we are lucky there hasn't been a rash of hunters shooting themselves in the shoulder.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

It is the commission and legislature that have forgotten about the evolution of firearms. there are guns that load from the breech, guns that load from the muzzle, guns that load from both ends and guns that load somewhere in the middle. Even nearly all in-lines involve inserting a primer in the breech, some involving inserting a primed 25ACP case in the breech. Are the WCO's going to arrest hunters using them??? Some in-lines (such as I believe the Huntsman from H&R) are used in PA, but can be loaded either from the breech or the muzzle.

The point is that there is no definition to clarify the terms. And state of firearms evolution is such that both the Commission ballistics advisors and the legislature have forgotten about all the different types of firearms. Muzzleloader can't possibly mean that everything is inserted in the muzzle to operate the gun, because even hand gonnes used fuses inserted at the breech. Matchlocks, wheel locks and flintlocks all involved primer powder placed in a pan, at the breech. percussion guns required a cap on a nipple near the breech. Then there are those guns from the transition period that load from the front of the chamber, but neither the muzzle or the breech. The Hall, Greener, Burnside etc.

 

[410-er]

And we wonder why the regs book got thicker as the years pass.

 

[Loggy]

LOL 410-er!!

I FWDed this thread to HPA Member PGC WCO Dick Bodenhorn for an official answer.

IMO..its a no-brainer to say the least...a Muzzleloader is a gun solely designed for projectile & charge to be loaded from it's muzzle end(NOT BREECH) and is commonly known as a sidelock(flintlock or percussion ignition) or an inline muzzleloader.

Hey...carry whut you wunt but best of luck explaining how your muzzle loading centerfire cartridge rifle is a muzzleloader!! lol