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Discussion Starter #1
I have been reading posts on in-line accuracy lately and have to ask what are most folk’s goals.

For me keeping my bullets in a 2-3 inch diameter at 100 yds is enough for hunting whitetails. Now if you’re into competition shooting then I can see the reason for seeking tighter groups.

Lot’s of newbie’s read our post here and I hope that they don’t feel that they need to accomplish something that their equipment cannot delivery. I know that I have read accuracy claims here that many centerfire rifles do not achieve; LOL.

With the cost of components; bullets, powder & primers, I would hate to see the newbie’s waste their time & money trying to achieve results that are not needed or in some cases not achievable either.

Your thoughts? FT
 

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2 to 3 inch groups at 100 yds is what my Bone Collector shoots with two pills of Triple Seven and a 245 gr Powerbelt. Doc in Pa
 

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Depending on who you talk to, a deers vital area is somewhere between 9 and 12 inches depending on the size of the deer. So I would think a 3 to 4 inch group is good.
I just sighted both my RMC muzzle loaders off the bench last week, a percussion and a flint that carry Williams peep sights. Both shot 3 inch groups which is better than I can hold standing on my one God given leg and one doctor given knee. In other words, the guns are capable of producing better groups than I can shoot under field conditions. If I miss or make a poor shot, I know who to blame.
I know this is a in-line question but no one will convince me that they shoot better than a good percussion, or a lot of flints.
 

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Good Post, I see guys who fuss on a bench trying to get 1" groups at 100yds, then try to shoot off hand and can't hit a 9" paper plate at 50 yds!!!!

It is important to sight in your rifle so you are sure the sights/scope, whatever trips your trigger for sights, are on but it is also very important to know your limits as an off hand shooter.

If a guy can shoot a 3" group at a distance and stance that he is comfortable with is what is important. If he can kneel and get that group at 50yds he will make meat if he limits his shot to 50 yds kneeling. If he needs cross sticks to get that group at 100 yds that is fine.

We can all tell stories about the guy who sits on top a strip mine and shoots 300+ yds, very few folks can even hit a deer standing at that range let alone make a killing shot.

Remember it is the shooters responsibility to make a quick clean kill.
 

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Freytown said:
Lot’s of newbie’s read our post here and I hope that they don’t feel that they need to accomplish something that their equipment cannot delivery.
It's not the equipment that wont/cannot deliver It's the shooter that fails

That's as bad as claiming the gun killed someone, it's all about the shooter Freytown.
Don't ever blame the weapon.

Big Redneck - I just made over a 400+ shot on a red tag farm hunting with jayd4wg and he witnessed the shot then asked where I placed my bullet? I told him and when we walked out to the deer, I hit windage dead on,but projectile hit about 3-4in high from where I told him. But your right, most cant even see the deer let alone hit it at great distances.

Shot wasnt made with the ML 7mm remmag
 

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There is a huge difference betweeen hunting accuracy and fine target accuracy. Muzzleloaders in particular are subject not just to the minor differences fom gun to gun, but accuracy is largely variable depending on load and bullet and individual loading practices, cleaning between shots etc. The best equipment in the world won't perform with inconsistent loading practices. Add the variable of each shooters individual eyes and sight picture and the shot spread can widen exponentially. A person who flinches and jerks the trigger is doomed regardless of all else.

Now, truth is nearly every gun on the market is capable of 5 to 6 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yds. IF the shooter does his part and loads are both proper and consistent. One of the challenges of muzzleloading happens also to be the frustration for beginners is getting that combination of gun, sights, load and follow through to produce acceptable accuracy for the intended task.

Some guns are better than others, some sights are better and some shooters are better. Given the cosmos of all these factors, it is pretty easy to screw things up without realizing it. And also pretty easy to get it together, at least for hunting accuraccy.

If we were interested just in mechanical accuracy, we could just use a machine rest to shoot lasers at a pin point.

Absent a screw up or defect in manufacturing nearly any muzzleloader on the market can produce acceptable accuracy for the deer woods.

There are quality differences. Hey a cheap CVA Bobcat rifle that sold at wally world for $100 bucks, is a great bare bones deer hunting rifle. There are more expensive and other styles of guns that may or may not send the projectile down range any better. Fit, finish, etc isn't necessarily a prerequisite to accuracy. A $100 dollar spanish made side lock percussion gun can adequately kill a deer. That deer doesn't get any deader because you use a $700 gun. Think of it like a ride from point "a" to point "b" You can get there on a moped, a motorcycle, a chevy or a rolls royce. If you are only going a half mile on a warm sunny day, which doesn't really matter much. 20 miles in the cold rain, it does.

The gun andd load combo should match the game and range. Eastern woodland whitetail, a patched round ball is fine, Western Elk at 400 yds, requires a different approach, faster twist and preferrably a longer bullet than the average 230 grain whoop de doo prepackaged $3.00 a piece bullets offered at most area stores. Just as you probably wouldn't hunt western elk with a 44-40.

There's alot of hype about "magnum" muzzleloaders. Unless you have a trip to Africa planned, or are going for Kodiak Bear, you don't need it.

Folks seem to fall into that more is better trap. More powder, more expensive guns, more expensive bullets. Not for whitetail.

In lines serve a definite purpose. They offer increase power over a longer range than the typical side lock round ball gun. IMO, though, even those short 50 cal in-line bullets suffer from range limitations and offer only a a couple dozen yards worth of better perfomance than a round ball. For really long range, like over 300 yards, it takes a more specialized approach.
 

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Guns are made more accurate than shooters. In order to truely zero any firearm it should be put in a vise and diled in. After you have it cutting holes in a vise (wich all guns should do) then take it out of the vise and shoot it in hunting positions. You should be impacting the same point. Your shot groups will grow larger simply because your heart is beating and you are breathing. After all of that is done then you will know your limitations with that firearm. If you only get it out of the cabinet once a year to make sure it is on and then go hunting you will be more limited than the guy who practices all year long. Personally I shoot as much as my budget will allow. More practice now equals more sucsess later on.
 

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No reason why a muzzloader shouldn't be good at long range. It requires a different approach. fast twist and long bullets. Necessary to overcome air resistance and resist tumbling. Look up the Creedmore match at which the Americans beat the Irish. The Irish had been reputed to be the best in the world to 1,000 yds and used sidelock muzzleloaders.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Great replies folks. Yeah, there are numerous variables that will produce varied results. Zimm said it best…consistent loading practices will work the best. FT
 

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Bloodhound, that would be some fine shooting.

Back in the late 70's early 80's there was a group of us who went muzzy shooting everywhere from Friendship to Brokenstraw to Tuckaho (sp)(Blair county)and all points in between.

At some shoots They had , I call them dingers, metal cut out targets of critters. I saw guys shoot off hand with flinters with open sights and knock down targets (4ft high bears)at 300 yds, it was really impressive, not only to hit them but have the energy and shot placement to knock them down. Anyone who thinks its is easy try hitting a drum at that distance with your flinter, a drum is about twice as wide as the bear cutouts.
Of course these were guys who lived for muzzy shooting.

Everyone is correct, most rifles will shoot way better the the "shooter".

Zimmer is right on, consistent loading = consistent scoring
 

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I get 1" or better groups from my Custom Ultimate Muzzleloader with 4 50 grain pellets behind a Barnes TMZ bullet. It is by far an awesome gun. I would like to see around 3" or less at 100 yards with a standard gun. I am going to hopefully pick up a youth Remington model 700 Muzzleloader for my son here in the next few days. Fingers are crossed.
 

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A properly scoped in-line off the bench should be able to do 2" or less groups after a lil load refinement. A newbie most likely initially will not get that but with a lil range time/load refining they will. I started years ago with 2 inexpensive CVA's & after some time on the range they both were producing 2'" OR less groups at 100 yds. If you clean between each shot(wet & dry patch) your will get there sooner than you think. BTW...I aint a sharpshooter either!! Just takes some dedication learning your in-line plus working up loads. If your consistently doing under 2" off the bench...you know your gun is on. It may cost some time & loads initially but well worth it in the long run to strive for this IMO.

Bench shooting-in is where I first start with a gun for load refinement. Then after you know what the gun/load will do...offhand & other hunting shooting positions are practiced. Least thats whut i do.

We all have to know what accuracy we are comfortable with before hunting which varies greatly amongst us hunters plus can vary with the type hunting, terrrain etc.

Happy shooting!
 

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Hello everyone.Ithought i would chime in on this one.From experience i can honestly say for ease of use and great accuracy,there is nothing like Blackhorn 209.Forget your pyrodex and triple seven.This stuff is the Real McCoy.I have already fired 20 shots out of my Thompson Triumph without cleaning what so ever and what was amazing was the last shot was just as accurate as the first shot.Granted,it,s expensive $27-32 for a ten oz. container,but for the ease of loading withe no cleaning between shots and the higher velocities and accuracy are well worth it.Trust me,try some and you will never use anything else.The bullet i use is Thompson Shockwave super glide 300 grainers.Good Luck Nam truism,"your mind might be 10,000 miles away,but your eyes and ears are right here.AIRBORNE
 

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Great input on BH 209!! This is whut its all about!! The more experienced based input the better!!!!
 

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I was very impressed with my inline I bought the cheap cva wolf put a nikon on it 2 pellets 247 grain powerbelt after I shot it in I can shoot 3 shots that touch each other at 100 yards great gun for the money imo
 

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Discussion Starter #19
First thing, Welcome to HPA and thanks for mentioning Blackhorn 209. I “googled” this powder this morning and except for the cost, it looks like a very good in-line propellant. I will give it a try once I burn up the stuff I have on hand. The noncorrosive properties should be very appealing to many folks and the rifles will surely appreciate this.

Not having to swab between shots when using sabots will attract a lot shooters too, IMO. Thx
FT
 

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CVA Accura:

I shoot 105gr Pyrodex RS, Win777 primer and either 250gr or 247gr Thor conical. At 100 yards they do this all day long ( 3 shot group):


I did some shooting at the NRA - Mid September and at 200 yards i pulled off a 1 1/2" 3 shot group. I was amazed, i hadnt expected that kind of accuracy at that distance.

My brother in law broke the rifle in during his new mexico hunt and popped this buck, opening morning @ 175 yards.


You have to experiement with loads and primers & such. This is how it used to shoot with 110gr Pyrodex RS @ 100:
 
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