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I support the decision by the vendors and celebs who are choosing to not participate in the 2013 ESOS and understand why they are doing it. My hope is that the vendors and celebs who are choosing to not support the very people who support them are willing to do something a little extra. The appointed leaders of the outdoor industry should get involved with the discussion on how to address the very troubling societal issue of mass shootings. We need a multidisciplinary and realistic approach. I own guns, I like guns and I want to be able to responsibly purchase guns. The reality is we need to stiffen a few things that make sense and are not that big of a deal. Prosecute those who intentionally lie on permit applications. If you are buying a gun what does it matter if it takes 3 days or 21 days to do a thorough background check? All citizens in this country have a right to be protected as much as possible, even the ones who do not like guns. Yes it's an Amendment, but I am sorry there are some people who should not own guns, that's reality. The spirit of the Constitution did not take in to play school shootings where children were killed days before Christmas. I would hope the founding fathers would have thought enough of its citizens to elicit some change. It's unfortunate that these events have prompted these very emotionally charged actions and reactions. Like it or not the gun is the accomplice to the crime...just as the get away driver is guilty the gun can not off scott free. Thats where sensical concessions come in and the input of the outdoor industry to aid in the other pressing social issues in this discussion. Don't just stand for the gun rights, make a difference in the other areas that need attention as well. We need these people to be champions to our society not just the Second Amendment. I know I would like to see more...
 

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WSPanic said:
Thats where sensical concessions come in.........
You can't legislate common sense. Take a look around. It's obvious. The libs and the gun-grabbers have coined the fuzzy term "common sense gun control" to make it seem as though anyone who opposes the power grab lacks common sense.

There are 10's of thousands of gun control laws on the books in this country on local, state and federal levels. If we have not gotten to "common sense" with those, we are NOT going to get to "common sense" with another round of prohibitions.
 

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Like it or not the gun is the accomplice to the crime...just as the get away driver is guilty the gun can not off scott free.

The next test you fail, tell the teacher "the pencil should not get off scott free"

The next car wreck you have tell the officer " my car better not get off scott free"

These are tools my friend, much like a gun !!!!!


WOW
 

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Sorry, but I disagree with the original post. The gun is no more of an accomplice to the crime as the car is an accomplice to a drunk driver that slams into a mini-van and kills a family of five.

A few weeks after the man recognized by all who knew him closely as mentally ill killed those kids and teachers, a plot was uncovered where a teenager was planning to harm a lot of people with tobacco cans rigged as grenades.

So now we need 3 days or 21 days of a background check to buy a car or to buy tobacco.

Then when the next disturbed person fills 20 pop bottles with gasoline and throws IEDs into a crowd of parade watchers, we need a 3 to 21 day waiting period to buy gasoline or Coke.

What we need is a better system to identify those who have such mental problems and get them help. Back in the day, it was too easy to just put Grandpa or Aunt Betty away as being "insane" so you could get their estate, so now the pendulum went the other way, families or law enforcement can't do anything until the lid comes completely off. Look at Sandy Hook, Aurora, and Arizona. People knew the (alleged) shooters had mental issues. Can't do too much about it in a proactive manner. Only reactive. Look he shot up a theater, a school, a political meet and greet. What is the problem here? Why guns of course!

So we'll minimize or eliminate the right of the multitude so we don't infringe on the rights of a very few.
 

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You confuse the actor and accomplice with the instruments they used to perpetrate their crimes. The gun is no more an accomplice than the car driven by your get away driver. Under your scenario, we must ban cars also.
The car and gun are not the problem. The person possessing these instruments determines whether they are used for good or bad purposes.
A government that secretly supplies mexican drug cartels with the same guns that they are attempting to keep out of the hands of their own law abiding citizen does not possess a clear understanding of the problem yet alone the solution.
 

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It's the world we live in now. I saw this on another post somewhere a killer is gonna kill if not with a gun it's gonna be something else. These new gun laws will only hurt the law abiding citizen
 

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Several points:

- increased wait times have done nothing to increase the effectiveness at picking out "crazies" in other states that have them. We already have an extended wait time in PA in that the PSP can flag an instant check for up to 2 weeks for further investigation. I had this happen to me once - not sure why, as all others have gone thru fine for me. More wait is feel good, not effective at anything. No one should wait on a right. An armed citizen will stop a crazy faster and for good. If not that citizen, then the next, provided there are at least 2 (or however many it takes) that are prepared to do so at any given moment. Plus, the real criminals that you are after don't buy guns thru legal channels anyhow, so no effectiveness there either at anything other than taking more of my time out of my life so a few others feel better. Remember the bad guys don't buy guns legally (unless there are getting them thru the ATF/Eric Holder).Notice most of these mass shootings were perpetrated by people either under 21 (and therefore can't legally own or have a firearm unless accompanied by a parent) or someone who went thru background checks and had no priors to throw a flag - again, ineffective.

- I'll agree with increased prosecution of existing laws, which will cost more, and take more jail space - ie, cost more. Plea bargaining is how things are done now, and at the risk of juries letting bad guys go again and again, where as a plea bargain will get them off the street for awhile, I do believe that increased prosecution and punishment is effective to a point. That said, some people are lifelong bad people and nothing short of killing them will stop them from hurting others. How far do you want to go??

- It's not just and Amendment, it's a Right, from the Creator, recognized and put in writing by the Founding Fathers as an Amendment in the Bill of Rights. They wrote this after LONG deliberations and after having just fought a REVOLUTION in which many of them died and lost everything they had. It was really that important to them. They did not want a repeat for as long as they could stand it off in writing. I, unfortunately feel that we are increasingly close to the next one, as the country increases to dig deep into class warfare of taking from those who will work, and give it away to those who refuse to. The ability to take the gov't back from such tyranny is what the 2nd Amendment is about, not liking guns or going hunting. It ranks up there with self defense. It is the reason for the 2nd Amendment. Sets us off from the rest of the known world. Mass killings happened in the days of the founding fathers too - done by crazy people then too - read real history books. In a responsible nation of free men, each and every one realizes his responsibility to protect and nurture what is his. He also realizes his own mortality - that is, he will die - how and where are yet to be determined. I think this is our biggest issue overall - we are now afraid to die, and we want the gov't to do something for us about it, so we don't have to ourselves. Not gonna happen, we have to ourselves....NOW. As G. Gordon Liddy put it in his autobiography, "Defeat the fear of death and welcome the death of fear." The founding fathers wrote this this way so that we could protect ourselves, not depend on some ineffective laws that are not enforced, or can't be, to somehow magically "stop the madness". It IS up to us, We the People, to do for ourselves, not for the gov't to allow us to. See above.

- " Yes it's an Amendment, but I am sorry there are some people who should not own guns, that's reality."

Agreed - and you are not going to stop those people with laws - not the ones we have, and not more. Lanza broke something like 41 gun laws alone in killing those people - which one do you want to arrest and stop him on before he kills those kids??? Laws in a free country are for the law-abiding and only enforceable after a crime has been committed, not before.

- "The spirit of the Constitution did not take in to play school shootings where children were killed days before Christmas."

Christmas has nothing to do with it - if those teachers and little children would have died in May, still purposely unarmed, relatively helpless and with no protection at all in a "gun free" zone, would it have been different for you somehow? Ignoring basic self-preservation killed those kids - many other attempted killings are stopped each year with a firearm, sometimes with no shots even fired - between one and two million per year in the US alone -never even hear about those on the "news", do ya? Hard to even prove that nothing happened and nobody got shot - not even "newsworthy".

- "I would hope the founding fathers would have thought enough of its citizens to elicit some change."

Yes, they wanted us to change back to humans with spines and a self-preservation instinct again. What we are going thru is nothing new in the scope of history - they saw it from history till then, and it has happened countless times worldwide since 1776, that people become complacent, are pushed to revolution, and then the process begins again, after the very loss of life that "they" desired to prevent thru complacency became unavoidable for "free" men, many died, and then the process begins again toward the constant seeking of freedom.

- "It's unfortunate that these events have prompted these very emotionally charged actions and reactions."

Yes, like this one.

- "Like it or not the gun is the accomplice to the crime...just as the get away driver is guilty the gun can not off scott free."

What are you gonna do, arrest the gun??? It did what it was designed to do - go bang when the trigger was pulled and put the bullet where the barrel was pointed when it went bang. Exactly like I want it to when I pull it to defend me and mine. Kind alike my pick-up - 7000# goes down the road as fast as I can push it via how it was designed. I can ignore the speed limit, driving laws, my license can be taken, etc. But you cant' stop me from driving if I want - I know. Have worked with a number of guys that lost their license due to DUI, and kept driving to work regardless. Banning pick-up trucks would surely cut down on highway mortality, right?? Maybe we should ban farm fertilizer, diesel fuel, and Uhaul trucks cuz that's what Timothy McVeigh used to blow the gov't bldg. in OKC?!?!?!? Tough you farmers, truck drivers, people who heat your house with heating oil (same as diesel essentially), and people moving themselves -we need public security, and these things are potentially an accomplice to crimes, so you're gonna have to find another way. Most of you have no inherent responsibility in your bodies or minds, and your use doesn't eliminate the potential for death or danger, so you can't do that. Yup, that'll stop 'em!

The Gun Owners of America has a historically-verifiable little fact that just lays it all out:

"The double standard is that in a 15-block area of Capitol Hill, there’s 1,800 Capitol Hill officers to protect them. How many armed adults are protecting our children right now at their schools? It is not a sanctuary and that’s the magnet that is attracting criminals. That’s why when you see the mass shootings over the last 20 years with the exception of one, they all occurred in gun-free zones. And that’s because these guys, they don’t want to go shoot up a police station or a gun store or a gun show where guns are going to be pointed back at them. They want to be the only one with a gun."

Please, be prepared as an American citizen to do what is right for free people and needs to be done in that vision, and realize that death is imminent for all of us - no one gets out alive, but the prepared live longer as a rule. Don't offer yourself or yours as a target, and just say no to more stealing of your means of self-protection and self-preservation.
 

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Among the first laws passed even if it looks good, it opens the door for our loss. It will keep on multipling to we loose everything. With todays technology there is no need to take 21 days for a background check. I buy guns quite frequently and dont mind filling out what i currently do and 1 hour should be sufficient to see if i lied on application. That is my right to be able to walk out the door with my gun because im not a criminal. If i care to have a 30 round magazine, again my right im not a criminal. I own a ford truck just because the guy down the street used one in a criminal act dont mean i cant own one. I will stand up for my second amendment 7 days a week and twice on sunday. We can not give in.
 

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WSPanic said:
I support the decision by the vendors and celebs who are choosing to not participate in the 2013 ESOS and understand why they are doing it. My hope is that the vendors and celebs who are choosing to not support the very people who support them are willing to do something a little extra. The appointed leaders of the outdoor industry should get involved with the discussion on how to address the very troubling societal issue of mass shootings. We need a multidisciplinary and realistic approach. I own guns, I like guns and I want to be able to responsibly purchase guns. The reality is we need to stiffen a few things that make sense and are not that big of a deal. Prosecute those who intentionally lie on permit applications. If you are buying a gun what does it matter if it takes 3 days or 21 days to do a thorough background check? All citizens in this country have a right to be protected as much as possible, even the ones who do not like guns. Yes it's an Amendment, but I am sorry there are some people who should not own guns, that's reality. The spirit of the Constitution did not take in to play school shootings where children were killed days before Christmas. I would hope the founding fathers would have thought enough of its citizens to elicit some change. It's unfortunate that these events have prompted these very emotionally charged actions and reactions. Like it or not the gun is the accomplice to the crime...just as the get away driver is guilty the gun can not off scott free. Thats where sensical concessions come in and the input of the outdoor industry to aid in the other pressing social issues in this discussion. Don't just stand for the gun rights, make a difference in the other areas that need attention as well. We need these people to be champions to our society not just the Second Amendment. I know I would like to see more...
At law, an accomplice is a person who actively participates in the commission of a crime. Key work "PERSON"...GEEEEEEEEEE!
 

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Yes, outofstater how true those statements are. When the Brady law was passed back in I believe 1994, It was only a short time after that the anti-gunners were crfting what they called Brady 2. The 1994 mid term elections came & that put an end to that.They will keep going after more & more gun control, we must fight every step of the way.
 
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