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Discussion Starter #1
Don't want to comment on the RedTag thread, as it was started to rejoice in the fact that a Deer is harvested, so, I'll start another. My guess is that the voting split of sportsman would weigh much more heavy to the side of being against Red Tag opportunities so this "late" in a Doe's pregnancy stage... or even immediately after she drops. I won't fault a person for taking advantage of a legal opportunity, so I guess I'll toss the blame at the agency that is implementing the program. I mean, if they want them all dead, can it not be done in a more moralistic fashion ? I mean let those that need to kill more after our routine seasons do it, but have a respite at least during late-stage pregnancy until after what should be an adequate time an orphaned Fawn has at least a 50/50 shot at survival on it's own. This really bugs me that the PGC feels there is a need to do this during such a timeframe. I understand a farmers need to curtail crop damage, but I believe there are provisions in place yearround for them to do just that, aside from a RedTag program. I really hope they can amend this program, and inject a bit more civility into it.
 

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I agree with you 100% and that is coming from someone who's family's property is enrolled. We curtail it on our own, but we shouldn't have to. Seasons should be closed PERIOD during these times. People knocking on our doors right now get turned away and their faces are remembered. They more than likely will never gain access in the future due to their insensitivity at this time of year.
 

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4c_game_chaser said:
I agree with you 100% and that is coming from someone who's family's property is enrolled. We curtail it on our own, but we shouldn't have to. Seasons should be closed PERIOD during these times. People knocking on our doors right now get turned away and their faces are remembered. They more than likely will never gain access in the future due to their insensitivity at this time of year.
That's one of the most hypocritical statements I've ever read!

You hold judgement over someone that seeks to utilize the program you're a part of? Only at certain times and because they can't read your mind at that? Here's a thought for you holier-than-thou moral crusaders....don't enroll in a program that YOU KNOW crosses your moral lines! And for God's sake don't judge those who are trying to help you out!
 

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IMO, It is a control method period. Pretty much like the sharpshooters being sent to state parks, or even someones BMer flying down the surburban street taking out a doe that is carrying twins. Out of all those methods of control, I like Red Tag the best. However you would never find me doing any deer trigger time in Feb-August of any year, if my place was in dire need of control I would let someone in to do so via Red tag. But luckily Fall seasons are all we need here.

There is a reason hunting season is in the Fall and not the spring, not only in PA but everywhere. Harvesting a deer in the spring is not for good hide, good body weight, it is to knock down the numbers. When it comes to getting a particular herd under control, sounds cruel to some, but do it when there are four hooves on the ground to flee , not 12.

In tha habitat forum, there is post of fawn that got hit while cutting hay...my reaction to that pic tells me I am no red tag hunter. But I am far from blasting the program.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Why blame the PGC...why not blame the PA Farm Bureau?
Because the PA Farm Bureau are not the legislative body that makes the regs. You're telling me the PFB is 100% adamant that Doe MUST BE killed in their final gestation period ? I know they have clout (based on SH alone), but come on.
 

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JasonN said:
4c_game_chaser said:
I agree with you 100% and that is coming from someone who's family's property is enrolled. We curtail it on our own, but we shouldn't have to. Seasons should be closed PERIOD during these times. People knocking on our doors right now get turned away and their faces are remembered. They more than likely will never gain access in the future due to their insensitivity at this time of year.
That's one of the most hypocritical statements I've ever read!

You hold judgement over someone that seeks to utilize the program you're a part of? Only at certain times and because they can't read your mind at that? Here's a thought for you holier-than-thou moral crusaders....don't enroll in a program that YOU KNOW crosses your moral lines! And for God's sake don't judge those who are trying to help you out!
Jason, when the decision becomes mine as a whole, we will not be enrolled. Currently I don't hold full say over it so instead I interjected restrictions.
 

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RB-HPA said:
IMO, It is a control method period. Pretty much like the sharpshooters being sent to state parks, or even someones BMer flying down the surburban street taking out a doe that is carrying twins. Out of all those methods of control, I like Red Tag the best. However you would never find me doing any deer trigger time in Feb-August of any year, if my place was in dire need of control I would let someone in to do so via Red tag. But luckily Fall seasons are all we need here.

There is a reason hunting season is in the Fall and not the spring, not only in PA but everywhere. Harvesting a deer in the spring is not for good hide, good body weight, it is to knock down the numbers. When it comes to getting a particular herd under control, sounds cruel to some, but do it when there are four hooves on the ground to flee , not 12.

In tha habitat forum, there is post of fawn that got hit while cutting hay...my reaction to that pic tells me I am no red tag hunter. But I am far from blasting the program.
This is well said and how I feel about it as well.
 

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It is a freakin program authorized by a permit to control deer damage. People look at it as a season, <span style="font-weight: bold">it is not a season</span> it is a time frame when the permit is valid. If you have a philosophical problem with the <span style="font-weight: bold">program</span> don't participate in it either as a landowner permitee or as a subpermitee shooter. It is entirely hypocritical for anyone to criticise the program and then participate in any deer season where pregnant doe are killed. The permit is not valid during the peak fawning period to minimize taking does that have dropped fawns.
 

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4C, I don't want to make it a personal thing. This isn't just for you, it's for anyone that would follow the same type of action.

That said, it isn't the restrictions that you place that bother me. It's holding your morals over someone else's head just for asking to hunt there. Then denying them access later....and all for following the rules. That in and of itself is lacking moral character....it's nothing but bait and switch.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Harvesting a deer in the spring is not for good hide, good body weight, it is to knock down the numbers.
Well yeah, of course. And forego any sense of morality in the process ? I'm not buying the "We HAVE to kill all the Doe that are in late pregnancy because it's the most efficient time to do it". That's bologna. Every year on this site, we hear the preaching that antlerless can be controlled by issuing tags, and the season periods mean very little in the grand scheme. RB, I'm fairly convinced that harvest goals, and even crop damage goals, can be achieved outside of this critical window, which is the period where life is at it's most fragile stage in this particular animals case.
 

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JasonN said:
RB-HPA said:
IMO, It is a control method period. Pretty much like the sharpshooters being sent to state parks, or even someones BMer flying down the surburban street taking out a doe that is carrying twins. Out of all those methods of control, I like Red Tag the best. However you would never find me doing any deer trigger time in Feb-August of any year, if my place was in dire need of control I would let someone in to do so via Red tag. But luckily Fall seasons are all we need here.

There is a reason hunting season is in the Fall and not the spring, not only in PA but everywhere. Harvesting a deer in the spring is not for good hide, good body weight, it is to knock down the numbers. When it comes to getting a particular herd under control, sounds cruel to some, but do it when there are four hooves on the ground to flee , not 12.

In tha habitat forum, there is post of fawn that got hit while cutting hay...my reaction to that pic tells me I am no red tag hunter. But I am far from blasting the program.
This is well said and how I feel about it as well.
That's kind of how I feel about it as well. With the exception that I would partake if it was lands that I am responsible for. If reduction is needed in this manner, then personally I would rather do so myself instead of asking others to do it for me. We are hunters, and need to remember that our primary purpose in the modern world is to be a tool in wildlife management. If we shirk that duty, someone else will do it for us. And that usually starts a thread about why that is wrong.....
 

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as far as blaming the PFB, yes they should be pushing to change this if a majority of them feel the same. In my area, we are seeing the major changes to attitude and sensitivity to this topic as the older farmers retire/die off and the businesses move to the hands of the new generations. The old die hards don't care one way or another, a dead deer is a good deer. The middle aged farmers are wishy washy and don't like it but allow it to an extent. The up & coming are against these times of year. It will take some time, but things should change in the coming years if someone decides to take the reigns and lead the charge inside the PFB.
 

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John S said:
It is a freakin program authorized by a permit to control deer damage. People look at it as a season, it is not a season it is a time frame when the permit is valid. If you have a philosophical problem with the program don't participate in it either as a landowner permitee or as a subpermitee shooter. It is entirely hypocritical for anyone to criticise the program and then participate in any deer season where pregnant doe are killed.
 

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Fleroo, I understand where you are coming from and agree that it does not look good to those that don't hunt (nor to many that do). But this is about killing deer for the purpose of reducing them prior to when they start feeding on the crops.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
It is a freakin program authorized by a permit to control deer damage.
Whoa. A regular Sherlock Holmes you are.
No kiddin. Everybody knows what the program is meant to achieve. My contention is that it can be done outside FOR THE MOST PART) of the late stage pregnancy window. The WORLD will not stop if we are not allowed to kill a Deer that in it's final stage of pregnancy John, but I believe you know that. What is so wrong in questioning the fact that the timeframe CAN BE changed, and not everything that is implemented at the PGC level is unquestionable ? Your respose is too shallow... you're a deeper thinker than that.
 

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Fleroo said:
Harvesting a deer in the spring is not for good hide, good body weight, it is to knock down the numbers.
Well yeah, of course. And forego any sense of morality in the process ? I'm not buying the "We HAVE to kill all the Doe that are in late pregnancy because it's the most efficient time to do it". That's bologna. Every year on this site, we hear the preaching that antlerless can be controlled by issuing tags, and the season periods mean very little in the grand scheme. RB, I'm fairly convinced that harvest goals, and even crop damage goals, can be achieved outside of this critical window, which is the period where life is at it's most fragile stage in this particular animals case.
It's not hunting, it's not a season, I don't even think it's fair chase! It's an eradication program plain and simple. Are you this 'moral' when it comes to mouse traps too?
 

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Yes it can be done outside of the late stage of pregnancy. It can be accomplished when the fawns are born. Only real difference is that more bullets are needed to accomplish the same outcome.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Fleroo, I understand where you are coming from and agree that it does not look good to those that don't hunt (nor to many that do). But this is about killing deer for the purpose of reducing them prior to when they start feeding on the crops.
Again. There is no question as to what the "program" is designed to do. My contention is that the goal can still be achieved, yet with a bit of dignity and morality if this "window" period were closed. That's it in a nutshell. There is no great NEED to take a Doe out during this period....... .PERIOD.
 
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