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yotehunter74 said:
hunting license without ID
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The person would be required to provide identification (not necessarily the physical drivers license ot photo ID) to the satusfaction of the WCO.yotehunter74 said:
Whatever is written in the Digest is NOT a law, it is merely an opinion. No where in Title 34 or 58 does it state that a person must carry a drivers license or photo ID. There is no such law in PA, which is why you won't see "drivers's license or other photo ID" in either of those titles.
There is a law, both in the Game Code and the Vehicle Code that says the person is required to sign his name in the presence of the officer (or WCO).
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There is no law requiring the carrying of a driver's license or photo ID. Period. If there was, both would be written into the law. What was done before photo driver's license and ID's??????
There is also nothing that says the WCO can take you in front of a MDJ to "prove your identification". That would be an illegal seizure under the law. A police officer can't do it, what makes you think a WCO can??
Sec. 901. Powers and duties of enforcement officers.
(a) Powers. - Any officer whose duty it is to enforce this title or any officer investigating any alleged violation of this title shall have the power and duty to:
(14) Demand and secure identification from any person.
(16) Require the holder of any license or permit required by this title or by commission regulation to sign the holder's name on a separate piece of paper in the presence of the requesting officer.
There is also nothing that says the WCO can take you in front of a MDJ to "prove your identification". That would be an illegal seizure under the law. A police officer can't do it, what makes you think a WCO can??
Sec. 901. Powers and duties of enforcement officers.
(a) Powers. - Any officer whose duty it is to enforce this title or any officer investigating any alleged violation of this title shall have the power and duty to:
(14) Demand and secure identification from any person.
(16) Require the holder of any license or permit required by this title or by commission regulation to sign the holder's name on a separate piece of paper in the presence of the requesting officer.
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Oh really??? Care to cite the law on this?? That would be an illegal seizure. The WCO has ZERO grounds to place you under arrest based on this.yotehunter74 said:
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Steve so if the guy is hunting and say his vehicle registration does not match the name on his license and he was involved in a violation... as long as he is willing to write a name on a piece of paper that it is all good... ?? that is by NO means positive identification
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Steve in PA said:
Steve in PA, I don't know what your problem is, or why you are so insistent on fighting the idea of someone providing the quick and easy identification of a Driver's License or Photo ID, but I believe he is referring to the points that I had made earlier:
Which, Steve in PA, means, that you, I and every other hunter and trapper have to satisfactorily provide positive identification, which proves 1) that we are who we say we are, 2) and a current address that shows we are entitled to the license that we are in possession of, whether that license is Resident or Non-resident.ConCrnd_Sprtsmn said:
If we don't SATISFACTORILY provide that current ID to the Officer and show him that we are WHO we say we are and that we currently LIVE where we say we do (without making him play 20 questions trying to figure it out), he is allowed to assume that we are a Non-resident, and I believe this next section of the law goes into effect:
********************************************************************
Sec. 931. Disposition of nonresident offenders.
Subject to any inconsistent regulations or rules prescribed pursuant to 42 Pa. C.S. §3502 (relating to financial regulations):
(1) Except as otherwise provided in paragraph (2), upon the apprehension of a nonresident of this Commonwealth for any violation of this title that is a summary offense, the officer whose duty it is to enforce this title shall issue a citation as provided by the Pennsylvania Rules of Criminal Procedure unless the nonresident offender elects to proceed under section 926 (relating to acknowledgment of guilt and receipt for payment).
(2) An officer whose duty it is to enforce this title shall be authorized to arrest a nonresident for a summary offense violation of this title and escort him to the appropriate issuing authority for a hearing, posting of bond or payment of the applicable fine and costs only when one or more of the following circumstances exist:
(i) The nonresident offender refuses to accept a citation from the officer.
(ii) The nonresident offender fails to provide positive identification showing his mailing address.
(iii) The officer has reasonable grounds to believe the nonresident offender is a repeat offender under this title.
(iv) The officer has reasonable grounds to believe the nonresident offender is hunting while his hunting privileges are suspended or furtaking while his furtaking privileges are suspended.
(v) The officer has reasonable grounds to believe the nonresident offender has failed to respond to a citation issued under this title or to pay assessed fines or penalties for a prior offense under this title.
(vi) The officer has reasonable grounds to believe the nonresident offender may pose a threat of harm to another person or property or to himself or herself.
(vii) The officer has reasonable grounds to believe the nonresident offender will not appear as required if issued a citation.
The officer shall not exercise his authority to arrest a nonresident under this paragraph if the nonresident offender chooses to place the amount of the applicable fine and costs in a stamped envelope addressed to the appropriate issuing authority and mails the envelope in the presence of the officer.
(3) The amount of fine and costs to be mailed to the issuing authority under paragraph (2) may be paid in cash, personal or other check, credit card or guaranteed arrest bond.
(4) The officer shall give the nonresident offender a receipt for payment, a copy of which shall be mailed with the payment and a copy retained by the officer.
*******************************************************************************************
So, the Law has been Cited.
It is NOT an illegal seizure, because arrest IS authorized.
The WCO has law as recourse IF someone fails to satisfactorily provide proof of Identity and Address.
Like I said, I don't understand your problem with providing ID, but the law puts the burden on US to prove to the officer who WE ARE. It is not the WCO's job to play guessing games trying to figure out IF you are Steve, WHERE you live and IF you are Resident. The identification burden is on you.
If you want to play head games and word games with a WCO, out in the woods, good luck. My guess is that an, "ID? We don't need no stinkin ID...", kind of attitude, is the quickest way to earn a trip to a DJ.
Me, personally, I will carry proper ID and make it easy on myself and the LEO... because, it is the right thing to do. And, my hunting time is too valuable to be wasted playing games trying to make a WCO figure out who I am...
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Steve, be in violation of title 34 or 58 by failure to show POSITIVE ID, now you have a violation... if the officer can not prove who you are... you will be taken in... it is no different than a police officer... get stopped for something say shoplifting now you are in violation... if you try to tell a cop your name and say " well I will even write it on a piece of paper" and see where that gets you... I will tell you... it will get you a trip to the station or the on duty DJ ..... once there is a violation, if you can not provide positive ID, you cant just walk away by saying i am so and so...
as above why do you make it seem so hard? carry a photocopy of your drivers license with you... that way you dont have to worry about losing your license but at the same time the black and white copy will have a pic on it... and all your info. even or DJ has told us if we can not prove who someone is to bring them in and he will...
as above why do you make it seem so hard? carry a photocopy of your drivers license with you... that way you dont have to worry about losing your license but at the same time the black and white copy will have a pic on it... and all your info. even or DJ has told us if we can not prove who someone is to bring them in and he will...
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I have to be honest yotehunter74.... I am waiting to see if the hunting license display law gets changed.
Why?, you might ask....
Well, because it slays me that:
(1) I see so many guys on here complaining about having to "display" their hunting license, because their hunting licenses fall off of their backs and get lost in the woods.
(2) They want to be able to carry their hunting license IN their wallets, so that the licenses are safe and don't get lost.
(3) That sounds reasonable.. right?
(4) I see so many guys on here complaining about having to carry ID with them, because they are afraid to carry their wallets with them in the field, because they might/did /know someone who did lose them, if they have to carry then in their pocket.
(5) So, they leave their wallets in their cars or trucks where they are safe...
(6) And, then, they fight with the WCOs over what "other" form of ID they can use..., so, they don't have to risk losing their wallet in the field...
(7) Sounds reasonable.. right?
until...
(8) Things are going to get very interesting when a WCO checks these people in the field and they have NO ID <u>and</u> NO hunting license, because they were afraid they might lose their wallets and "I left them in my truck...."
A case of "Be careful what you wish for"?
AND
I pity the WCOs... that have to untangle it.
JMHO...
Why?, you might ask....
Well, because it slays me that:
(1) I see so many guys on here complaining about having to "display" their hunting license, because their hunting licenses fall off of their backs and get lost in the woods.
(2) They want to be able to carry their hunting license IN their wallets, so that the licenses are safe and don't get lost.
(3) That sounds reasonable.. right?
(4) I see so many guys on here complaining about having to carry ID with them, because they are afraid to carry their wallets with them in the field, because they might/did /know someone who did lose them, if they have to carry then in their pocket.
(5) So, they leave their wallets in their cars or trucks where they are safe...
(6) And, then, they fight with the WCOs over what "other" form of ID they can use..., so, they don't have to risk losing their wallet in the field...
(7) Sounds reasonable.. right?
until...
(8) Things are going to get very interesting when a WCO checks these people in the field and they have NO ID <u>and</u> NO hunting license, because they were afraid they might lose their wallets and "I left them in my truck...."
A case of "Be careful what you wish for"?
AND
I pity the WCOs... that have to untangle it.
JMHO...
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If/when they change that rule, I'll still pin my license on the back of my coat. I have been doing it for 55 years now and have no intention of stopping. My one son lives in N.Y. and still pins his license on his back.
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ConCrnd_Sprtsmn
I agree it will be a total cluster... but when the WCO's and DWCO's just write the citation on the spot for them not having it in the field then word will get around.... I just laugh when I hear all the excuses for why they dont feel they should have to have ID on them or they want us to drive back to their house for them to get it... it never ends. and it never will.... but regardless... they get the citation a few weeks before Christmas maybe they wont keep doing it ....
I agree it will be a total cluster... but when the WCO's and DWCO's just write the citation on the spot for them not having it in the field then word will get around.... I just laugh when I hear all the excuses for why they dont feel they should have to have ID on them or they want us to drive back to their house for them to get it... it never ends. and it never will.... but regardless... they get the citation a few weeks before Christmas maybe they wont keep doing it ....
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There is no statuatory law to carry any type of identification on your person, other than a drivers license when operating a motor vehicle. Positive ID does not mean having a photo ID. Not having a photo ID is NOT a game law violation.yotehunter74 said:
I am a police officer and deal with ID'ing people all the time. Shoplifting is a crime. Not having a photo ID on you again, is NOT a game law violation. Positive ID does NOT = photo ID. It means providing name, DOB, address, etc. All information that can be verified.
Being dragged in front of a MDJ by a WCO for nothing more than not having a photo ID is an illegal arrest and a violation of your civil rights.
I don't know anything about your MDJ, but he needs to brush up on his laws, since there is no law that gives him the power to tell you to "bring someone in" so they can be identified. What is the MDJ going to do to verify the persons ID?
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1 -
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2 - yotehunter74 Did you notice that Steve in PA totally ignored all of my previous posts? I guess that means that he doesn't want to deal with the arguments or law that I cited there, even though it did answer his questions and even cited the law he asked for.
3 - Steve in PA, I do not know or understand why you seem to be so anti-photo ID carry. I'm shocked and disappointed to learn that you are supposedly a police officer. I can't begin to understand why one LEO would try to make it harder for another officer to do their job by encouraging people to not carry some form of ID, especially a simple photo ID. I'm just honestly feeling frustrated for the WCOs, if this is the kind of support that they get from fellow law enforcement.
I would like to address a few misleading statements that were made:
<u>(1) Statement</u> -- There is no law requiring the carrying of a driver's license or photo ID. .
<u>Response</u> -- True. There is no specific Title 34 law requiring the carrying of a DL or Photo ID. You ARE required to supply some form of positive identification to WCO's and landowners.
<u>(2) Statement</u> -- What was done before photo driver's license and ID's??????
<u>Response</u> -- You answered your own question by citing:
Sec. 901. Powers and duties of enforcement officers.
(a) Powers. - Any officer whose duty it is to enforce this title or any officer investigating any alleged violation of this title shall have the power and duty to:
(14) Demand and secure identification from any person.
(Definition: <u>Identification - evidence of identity</u>)
(<u>Explanation -</u> Photo IDs did not exist back then, so Officers asked people to produce other documents that would help prove their identity.)
(16) Require the holder of any license or permit required by this title or by commission regulation to sign the holder's name on a separate piece of paper in the presence of the requesting officer.
(<u> Explanation -</u> Photo IDs did not exist back then, so Officers would have people write things and sign their names in a crude effort at in-the-field handwriting analysis, in order to verify whether or not a person was legitimately in possession of a license.)
<u>(3) Statement</u> -- There is no statuatory law to carry any type of identification on your person, other than a drivers license when operating a motor vehicle.
<u>Response</u> -- False. I would argue that Steve's own citation of Section 901 (a)(14) and my citation of Section 2711(a)(12) are just such laws requiring a person to supply more than verbal information and have been upheld in court.
<u>(4) Statement</u> -- Positive ID does not mean having a photo ID.
<u>Response</u> -- That is an absurd statement! Having a photo ID is the simplest form of a Positive ID! It is the quickest, easiest method of making a positive ID, because the Photo ID generally contains two or more verifiable information: a "recent" photograph, Name, DOB, Ht, Wt, Eyes, Hair, etc!
<u>(5) Statement</u> -- Not having a photo ID is NOT a game law violation.
<u>Response</u> -- True... to a limited point, provided that you have OTHER identification for the WCO. Not having it CAN be cause for a violation for failure to provide ID, if you aren't able to provide other forms of identification. As I pointed out earlier, the faster and more accurately you can prove your identity and residency to the WCO, the less cause the WCO has to question your residency status and take you forthwith to a DJ.
<u>(6) Statement</u> -- I am a police officer and deal with ID'ing people all the time. Shoplifting is a crime. Not having a photo ID on you again, is NOT a game law violation. Positive ID does NOT = photo ID. It means providing name, DOB, address, etc. All information that can be verified.
<u>Response</u> -- You seem to have no understanding of the differences between your job and that of a WCO. You are comparing apples to oranges. Let's use your example for comparison.
You are, in a store, confronting a suspected shoplifter. Your unit is parked at the storefront curb in a residential area or business complex, within a few miles/minutes of your Dept. HQ. You have access to: the store's landlines, numerous cell phones, your portable radio that probably has access to your Dept and local County EMA (and possibly PSP), plus you probably have a computer in your vehicle with access to all of the information that you ever need at your fingertips...
you ask the suspect for ID... I'm sorry officer I forgot my wallet,...the shoplifter gives you a name, DOB, address, etc... and you call it in or go to your computer and plug it in.... blip, blip... Name Not Found.. Sir, try again... blip, blip...name Found, but not with that DOB... Now, sir, you are not being honest with me, let's try again... etc., etc., at what point do you take them to the station and do a more thorough check on them Steve??
A WCO is outdoors, in all kinds of weather, dealing with one or more hunters or trappers at a time. Their Regional Office (Dept HQ) is dozens of miles and an average of an hour away. He/she is most likely some distance from their vehicle: in a field or woods, they have no landlines, they may have a cell phone, their portable if they have one is short range and even their main vehicle radios can't do half what even a small police dept.'s can do, and they don't have computers in their vehicles to run instant checks on people. If they want information on someone they need to have radio dispatchers at their Regional Offices run any identity checks, IF they can reach the office on their antiquated radio system.
And, when they are confronted, in the field, with someone (or 3 or 5 at a time) that has NO ID documents (photo or otherwise), as you pointed out the WCO's have a choice -- they can play "20 questions" (which ruins everyone's hunt) , they can take the subject back to the WCO's vehicle and play "20 Questions" there (which ruins everyone's hunt), or they can take the subject to the DJ on suspicion of being a Non-resident (which really ruins everyone's hunt!).
<u>(7) Statement</u> -- I don't know anything about your MDJ, but he needs to brush up on his laws, since there is no law that gives him the power to tell you to "bring someone in" so they can be identified. What is the MDJ going to do to verify the persons ID?
<u>Response</u> -- I think that an MDJ is certainly qualified to to determine whether or not a subject has or has not provided an officer with a sufficient amount of identification to satisfy a question of Residency! If the WCO has played "20 Questions" (or even "4 Questions") and decided that the subject deserves a trip to the DJ, that is where they can go. What the DJ then does to determine identity is up to the DJ. He/she may decide that the subject needs to be held until someone shows up with sufficient paperwork to prove residency status. Maybe the DJ will give the subject the opportunity of a time limit and a few phone calls to get proof ASAP. That is between the DJ and the subject that failed to provide sufficient ID.
And again, all of this was addressed earlier (see the dead horse).
Every hunter and trapper has to satisfactorily provide positive identification, which proves 1) that we are who we say we are, 2) and a current address that shows we are entitled to the license that we are in possession of, whether that license is Resident or Non-resident. The Burden of Proof of identification and residency is on the license buyer. It comes with the license.
2 - yotehunter74 Did you notice that Steve in PA totally ignored all of my previous posts? I guess that means that he doesn't want to deal with the arguments or law that I cited there, even though it did answer his questions and even cited the law he asked for.
3 - Steve in PA, I do not know or understand why you seem to be so anti-photo ID carry. I'm shocked and disappointed to learn that you are supposedly a police officer. I can't begin to understand why one LEO would try to make it harder for another officer to do their job by encouraging people to not carry some form of ID, especially a simple photo ID. I'm just honestly feeling frustrated for the WCOs, if this is the kind of support that they get from fellow law enforcement.
I would like to address a few misleading statements that were made:
<u>(1) Statement</u> -- There is no law requiring the carrying of a driver's license or photo ID. .
<u>Response</u> -- True. There is no specific Title 34 law requiring the carrying of a DL or Photo ID. You ARE required to supply some form of positive identification to WCO's and landowners.
<u>(2) Statement</u> -- What was done before photo driver's license and ID's??????
<u>Response</u> -- You answered your own question by citing:
Sec. 901. Powers and duties of enforcement officers.
(a) Powers. - Any officer whose duty it is to enforce this title or any officer investigating any alleged violation of this title shall have the power and duty to:
(14) Demand and secure identification from any person.
(Definition: <u>Identification - evidence of identity</u>)
(<u>Explanation -</u> Photo IDs did not exist back then, so Officers asked people to produce other documents that would help prove their identity.)
(16) Require the holder of any license or permit required by this title or by commission regulation to sign the holder's name on a separate piece of paper in the presence of the requesting officer.
(<u> Explanation -</u> Photo IDs did not exist back then, so Officers would have people write things and sign their names in a crude effort at in-the-field handwriting analysis, in order to verify whether or not a person was legitimately in possession of a license.)
<u>(3) Statement</u> -- There is no statuatory law to carry any type of identification on your person, other than a drivers license when operating a motor vehicle.
<u>Response</u> -- False. I would argue that Steve's own citation of Section 901 (a)(14) and my citation of Section 2711(a)(12) are just such laws requiring a person to supply more than verbal information and have been upheld in court.
<u>(4) Statement</u> -- Positive ID does not mean having a photo ID.
<u>Response</u> -- That is an absurd statement! Having a photo ID is the simplest form of a Positive ID! It is the quickest, easiest method of making a positive ID, because the Photo ID generally contains two or more verifiable information: a "recent" photograph, Name, DOB, Ht, Wt, Eyes, Hair, etc!
<u>(5) Statement</u> -- Not having a photo ID is NOT a game law violation.
<u>Response</u> -- True... to a limited point, provided that you have OTHER identification for the WCO. Not having it CAN be cause for a violation for failure to provide ID, if you aren't able to provide other forms of identification. As I pointed out earlier, the faster and more accurately you can prove your identity and residency to the WCO, the less cause the WCO has to question your residency status and take you forthwith to a DJ.
<u>(6) Statement</u> -- I am a police officer and deal with ID'ing people all the time. Shoplifting is a crime. Not having a photo ID on you again, is NOT a game law violation. Positive ID does NOT = photo ID. It means providing name, DOB, address, etc. All information that can be verified.
<u>Response</u> -- You seem to have no understanding of the differences between your job and that of a WCO. You are comparing apples to oranges. Let's use your example for comparison.
You are, in a store, confronting a suspected shoplifter. Your unit is parked at the storefront curb in a residential area or business complex, within a few miles/minutes of your Dept. HQ. You have access to: the store's landlines, numerous cell phones, your portable radio that probably has access to your Dept and local County EMA (and possibly PSP), plus you probably have a computer in your vehicle with access to all of the information that you ever need at your fingertips...
you ask the suspect for ID... I'm sorry officer I forgot my wallet,...the shoplifter gives you a name, DOB, address, etc... and you call it in or go to your computer and plug it in.... blip, blip... Name Not Found.. Sir, try again... blip, blip...name Found, but not with that DOB... Now, sir, you are not being honest with me, let's try again... etc., etc., at what point do you take them to the station and do a more thorough check on them Steve??
A WCO is outdoors, in all kinds of weather, dealing with one or more hunters or trappers at a time. Their Regional Office (Dept HQ) is dozens of miles and an average of an hour away. He/she is most likely some distance from their vehicle: in a field or woods, they have no landlines, they may have a cell phone, their portable if they have one is short range and even their main vehicle radios can't do half what even a small police dept.'s can do, and they don't have computers in their vehicles to run instant checks on people. If they want information on someone they need to have radio dispatchers at their Regional Offices run any identity checks, IF they can reach the office on their antiquated radio system.
And, when they are confronted, in the field, with someone (or 3 or 5 at a time) that has NO ID documents (photo or otherwise), as you pointed out the WCO's have a choice -- they can play "20 questions" (which ruins everyone's hunt) , they can take the subject back to the WCO's vehicle and play "20 Questions" there (which ruins everyone's hunt), or they can take the subject to the DJ on suspicion of being a Non-resident (which really ruins everyone's hunt!).
<u>(7) Statement</u> -- I don't know anything about your MDJ, but he needs to brush up on his laws, since there is no law that gives him the power to tell you to "bring someone in" so they can be identified. What is the MDJ going to do to verify the persons ID?
<u>Response</u> -- I think that an MDJ is certainly qualified to to determine whether or not a subject has or has not provided an officer with a sufficient amount of identification to satisfy a question of Residency! If the WCO has played "20 Questions" (or even "4 Questions") and decided that the subject deserves a trip to the DJ, that is where they can go. What the DJ then does to determine identity is up to the DJ. He/she may decide that the subject needs to be held until someone shows up with sufficient paperwork to prove residency status. Maybe the DJ will give the subject the opportunity of a time limit and a few phone calls to get proof ASAP. That is between the DJ and the subject that failed to provide sufficient ID.
And again, all of this was addressed earlier (see the dead horse).
Every hunter and trapper has to satisfactorily provide positive identification, which proves 1) that we are who we say we are, 2) and a current address that shows we are entitled to the license that we are in possession of, whether that license is Resident or Non-resident. The Burden of Proof of identification and residency is on the license buyer. It comes with the license.
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Just seems like this post is a RERUN about every page.
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Yep simplest thing is to carry your Id. Not hard to do button it in a front shirt pocket or if you carry a back pack zip it in one of the pouches.
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Who is this DJ so we can call him to verify what you are saying is true?
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Has to be current. That way they can verify the address. For all the know you might have moved out of state and kept your old license for just tht reason.
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I know a whole lot of people that do this. i dont think there would be much issue. i was actually just stopped by a warden opening day of pheasant, along with 2 of my buddies. he checked our licenses one by one, and did not ask for id, just asked us for our information that would be found on our license; address, name, etc. he then checked our shotguns to make sure they were plugged. after that he told us about a field that he personally put 60 birds, and gave us turn by turn directins, that he has only seen one group of hunters in all day. we then went and got some birds. an overall good experience.Tob said:
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