hunting license without ID

Steve in PA said:

yotehunter74 said:

ConCrnd_Sprtsmn .... it is nice to see someone who actually reads the book....

What some folks do not understand ... is if you fail to provide POSITIVE ID to an officer and there remains any question as to who you are the officer can take you into custody and transport you to the local or on duty district justice so you may provide HIM with positive id and also ruining your day hunting because you cant prove who you are...

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Oh really??? Care to cite the law on this?? That would be an illegal seizure. The WCO has ZERO grounds to place you under arrest based on this.

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Steve in PA, I don't know what your problem is, or why you are so insistent on fighting the idea of someone providing the quick and easy identification of a Driver's License or Photo ID, but I believe he is referring to the points that I had made earlier:

ConCrnd_Sprtsmn said:

Steve in PA said:

There is no requirement to carry a drivers license or photo ID when hunting. The law says "provide identification", which could be name, ssn, date of birth, address, etc.

It's the same with polie officers. There is no law that requires the person to carry or produce a drivers license (unless they are operating a motor vehicle) or any type of photo ID. During an investigatory stop, the person would be required to provide identification, such as name, DOB, etc.

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Actually, the law says more than "provide identification". It actually says, "to satisfactorily provide positive identification." There is a BIG difference.

****On page 85 of the 2009-2010 Hunting and Trapping Digest:

Identification Required When Hunting: While
afield, in addition to their hunting or furtaker license,
sportsmen are required to have cards or
papers that must be shown to an officer or landowner
upon request to confirm identification and
residency.

**** Also, According to Title 34 - The Game and Wildlife Code:


Sec. 2711. Unlawful acts concerning licenses.

(a) General rule. - Except as otherwise provided in this title, it is unlawful for any person to:

(1) - (11) etc, etc.

(12) While exercising any of the privileges granted by any license provided for in this title, refuse or fail to satisfactorily provide positive identification to any landowner upon whose land that person may be occupying OR to any officer whose duty it is to enforce this title.

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Which, Steve in PA, means, that you, I and every other hunter and trapper have to satisfactorily provide positive identification, which proves 1) that we are who we say we are, 2) and a current address that shows we are entitled to the license that we are in possession of, whether that license is Resident or Non-resident.

If we don't SATISFACTORILY provide that current ID to the Officer and show him that we are WHO we say we are and that we currently LIVE where we say we do (without making him play 20 questions trying to figure it out), he is allowed to assume that we are a Non-resident, and I believe this next section of the law goes into effect:

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Sec. 931. Disposition of nonresident offenders.

Subject to any inconsistent regulations or rules prescribed pursuant to 42 Pa. C.S. §3502 (relating to financial regulations):

(1) Except as otherwise provided in paragraph (2), upon the apprehension of a nonresident of this Commonwealth for any violation of this title that is a summary offense, the officer whose duty it is to enforce this title shall issue a citation as provided by the Pennsylvania Rules of Criminal Procedure unless the nonresident offender elects to proceed under section 926 (relating to acknowledgment of guilt and receipt for payment).

(2) An officer whose duty it is to enforce this title shall be authorized to arrest a nonresident for a summary offense violation of this title and escort him to the appropriate issuing authority for a hearing, posting of bond or payment of the applicable fine and costs only when one or more of the following circumstances exist:

(i) The nonresident offender refuses to accept a citation from the officer.

(ii) The nonresident offender fails to provide positive identification showing his mailing address.

(iii) The officer has reasonable grounds to believe the nonresident offender is a repeat offender under this title.

(iv) The officer has reasonable grounds to believe the nonresident offender is hunting while his hunting privileges are suspended or furtaking while his furtaking privileges are suspended.

(v) The officer has reasonable grounds to believe the nonresident offender has failed to respond to a citation issued under this title or to pay assessed fines or penalties for a prior offense under this title.

(vi) The officer has reasonable grounds to believe the nonresident offender may pose a threat of harm to another person or property or to himself or herself.

(vii) The officer has reasonable grounds to believe the nonresident offender will not appear as required if issued a citation.

The officer shall not exercise his authority to arrest a nonresident under this paragraph if the nonresident offender chooses to place the amount of the applicable fine and costs in a stamped envelope addressed to the appropriate issuing authority and mails the envelope in the presence of the officer.

(3) The amount of fine and costs to be mailed to the issuing authority under paragraph (2) may be paid in cash, personal or other check, credit card or guaranteed arrest bond.

(4) The officer shall give the nonresident offender a receipt for payment, a copy of which shall be mailed with the payment and a copy retained by the officer.
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So, the Law has been Cited.
It is NOT an illegal seizure, because arrest IS authorized.
The WCO has law as recourse IF someone fails to satisfactorily provide proof of Identity and Address.

Like I said, I don't understand your problem with providing ID, but the law puts the burden on US to prove to the officer who WE ARE. It is not the WCO's job to play guessing games trying to figure out IF you are Steve, WHERE you live and IF you are Resident. The identification burden is on you.
If you want to play head games and word games with a WCO, out in the woods, good luck. My guess is that an, "ID? We don't need no stinkin ID...", kind of attitude, is the quickest way to earn a trip to a DJ.

Me, personally, I will carry proper ID and make it easy on myself and the LEO... because, it is the right thing to do. And, my hunting time is too valuable to be wasted playing games trying to make a WCO figure out who I am...

I have to be honest yotehunter74.... I am waiting to see if the hunting license display law gets changed.

Why?, you might ask....

Well, because it slays me that:

(1) I see so many guys on here complaining about having to "display" their hunting license, because their hunting licenses fall off of their backs and get lost in the woods.
(2) They want to be able to carry their hunting license IN their wallets, so that the licenses are safe and don't get lost.
(3) That sounds reasonable.. right?
(4) I see so many guys on here complaining about having to carry ID with them, because they are afraid to carry their wallets with them in the field, because they might/did /know someone who did lose them, if they have to carry then in their pocket.
(5) So, they leave their wallets in their cars or trucks where they are safe...
(6) And, then, they fight with the WCOs over what "other" form of ID they can use..., so, they don't have to risk losing their wallet in the field...
(7) Sounds reasonable.. right?

until...

(8) Things are going to get very interesting when a WCO checks these people in the field and they have NO ID <u>and</u> NO hunting license, because they were afraid they might lose their wallets and "I left them in my truck...."

A case of "Be careful what you wish for"?
AND
I pity the WCOs... that have to untangle it.

JMHO...

1 -

2 - yotehunter74 Did you notice that Steve in PA totally ignored all of my previous posts? I guess that means that he doesn't want to deal with the arguments or law that I cited there, even though it did answer his questions and even cited the law he asked for.

3 - Steve in PA, I do not know or understand why you seem to be so anti-photo ID carry. I'm shocked and disappointed to learn that you are supposedly a police officer. I can't begin to understand why one LEO would try to make it harder for another officer to do their job by encouraging people to not carry some form of ID, especially a simple photo ID. I'm just honestly feeling frustrated for the WCOs, if this is the kind of support that they get from fellow law enforcement.

I would like to address a few misleading statements that were made:

<u>(1) Statement</u> -- There is no law requiring the carrying of a driver's license or photo ID. .

<u>Response</u> -- True. There is no specific Title 34 law requiring the carrying of a DL or Photo ID. You ARE required to supply some form of positive identification to WCO's and landowners.

<u>(2) Statement</u> -- What was done before photo driver's license and ID's??????

<u>Response</u> -- You answered your own question by citing:

Sec. 901. Powers and duties of enforcement officers.

(a) Powers. - Any officer whose duty it is to enforce this title or any officer investigating any alleged violation of this title shall have the power and duty to:

(14) Demand and secure identification from any person.
(Definition: <u>Identification - evidence of identity</u>)
(<u>Explanation -</u> Photo IDs did not exist back then, so Officers asked people to produce other documents that would help prove their identity.)

(16) Require the holder of any license or permit required by this title or by commission regulation to sign the holder's name on a separate piece of paper in the presence of the requesting officer.
(<u> Explanation -</u> Photo IDs did not exist back then, so Officers would have people write things and sign their names in a crude effort at in-the-field handwriting analysis, in order to verify whether or not a person was legitimately in possession of a license.)

<u>(3) Statement</u> -- There is no statuatory law to carry any type of identification on your person, other than a drivers license when operating a motor vehicle.

<u>Response</u> -- False. I would argue that Steve's own citation of Section 901 (a)(14) and my citation of Section 2711(a)(12) are just such laws requiring a person to supply more than verbal information and have been upheld in court.

<u>(4) Statement</u> -- Positive ID does not mean having a photo ID.

<u>Response</u> -- That is an absurd statement! Having a photo ID is the simplest form of a Positive ID! It is the quickest, easiest method of making a positive ID, because the Photo ID generally contains two or more verifiable information: a "recent" photograph, Name, DOB, Ht, Wt, Eyes, Hair, etc!

<u>(5) Statement</u> -- Not having a photo ID is NOT a game law violation.

<u>Response</u> -- True... to a limited point, provided that you have OTHER identification for the WCO. Not having it CAN be cause for a violation for failure to provide ID, if you aren't able to provide other forms of identification. As I pointed out earlier, the faster and more accurately you can prove your identity and residency to the WCO, the less cause the WCO has to question your residency status and take you forthwith to a DJ.

<u>(6) Statement</u> -- I am a police officer and deal with ID'ing people all the time. Shoplifting is a crime. Not having a photo ID on you again, is NOT a game law violation. Positive ID does NOT = photo ID. It means providing name, DOB, address, etc. All information that can be verified.

<u>Response</u> -- You seem to have no understanding of the differences between your job and that of a WCO. You are comparing apples to oranges. Let's use your example for comparison.
You are, in a store, confronting a suspected shoplifter. Your unit is parked at the storefront curb in a residential area or business complex, within a few miles/minutes of your Dept. HQ. You have access to: the store's landlines, numerous cell phones, your portable radio that probably has access to your Dept and local County EMA (and possibly PSP), plus you probably have a computer in your vehicle with access to all of the information that you ever need at your fingertips...
you ask the suspect for ID... I'm sorry officer I forgot my wallet,...the shoplifter gives you a name, DOB, address, etc... and you call it in or go to your computer and plug it in.... blip, blip... Name Not Found.. Sir, try again... blip, blip...name Found, but not with that DOB... Now, sir, you are not being honest with me, let's try again... etc., etc., at what point do you take them to the station and do a more thorough check on them Steve??

A WCO is outdoors, in all kinds of weather, dealing with one or more hunters or trappers at a time. Their Regional Office (Dept HQ) is dozens of miles and an average of an hour away. He/she is most likely some distance from their vehicle: in a field or woods, they have no landlines, they may have a cell phone, their portable if they have one is short range and even their main vehicle radios can't do half what even a small police dept.'s can do, and they don't have computers in their vehicles to run instant checks on people. If they want information on someone they need to have radio dispatchers at their Regional Offices run any identity checks, IF they can reach the office on their antiquated radio system.
And, when they are confronted, in the field, with someone (or 3 or 5 at a time) that has NO ID documents (photo or otherwise), as you pointed out the WCO's have a choice -- they can play "20 questions" (which ruins everyone's hunt) , they can take the subject back to the WCO's vehicle and play "20 Questions" there (which ruins everyone's hunt), or they can take the subject to the DJ on suspicion of being a Non-resident (which really ruins everyone's hunt!).

<u>(7) Statement</u> -- I don't know anything about your MDJ, but he needs to brush up on his laws, since there is no law that gives him the power to tell you to "bring someone in" so they can be identified. What is the MDJ going to do to verify the persons ID?

<u>Response</u> -- I think that an MDJ is certainly qualified to to determine whether or not a subject has or has not provided an officer with a sufficient amount of identification to satisfy a question of Residency! If the WCO has played "20 Questions" (or even "4 Questions") and decided that the subject deserves a trip to the DJ, that is where they can go. What the DJ then does to determine identity is up to the DJ. He/she may decide that the subject needs to be held until someone shows up with sufficient paperwork to prove residency status. Maybe the DJ will give the subject the opportunity of a time limit and a few phone calls to get proof ASAP. That is between the DJ and the subject that failed to provide sufficient ID.

And again, all of this was addressed earlier (see the dead horse).

Every hunter and trapper has to satisfactorily provide positive identification, which proves 1) that we are who we say we are, 2) and a current address that shows we are entitled to the license that we are in possession of, whether that license is Resident or Non-resident. The Burden of Proof of identification and residency is on the license buyer. It comes with the license.