The HuntingPA.com Outdoor Community banner

1 - 20 of 37 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
24,796 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
One aspect of our state’s battle against the spread of chronic wasting disease that has never made sense to me is that we wait until after deer in an area are found to be infected with the disease before we ban hunters from using deer-urine based scents, lures and attractants there. That seems stupid to me.


Until an outbreak is discovered – even though scientists suspect that urine from CWD-infected deer have played a role in spreading the disease from Colorado east to Pennsylvania and beyond over the last 50 years – hunters are free to sprinkle and dump deer urine orginating from who knows where, wherever they please.


Actually, some states and Canadian provinces, such as Alaska, Ontario and Nova Scotia, have banned the use of deer urine in an effort to keep chronic wasting disease outside of their boundaries. Even though it remains unclear if hunters using deer urine have distributed the prions that cause the always-fatal-to-deer-elk-and-moose disease – it seems likely, and they’re taking no chances.


Former Pennsylvania Game Commission wildlife veterinarian Walt Cottrell first urged game commissioners here to ban the use of deer urine by hunters in 2009 – before CWD showed up in the Keystone State. But commissioners never really considered his request, apparently believing such a ban was too controversial.


Even today, with chronic wasting disease infecting free-ranging deer in our state, some are cynical about the threat posed by the use of deer urine. Current commissioner Brian Hoover, of Delaware County, in particular, has repeatedly made it clear that he is skeptical that banning the use of deer urine by hunters would be worth the economic disruption it would cause.


This spring it became clear that Dr. Cottrell succeeded in persuading another state’s wildlife officials about the risk of deer urine use, even though he failed with Pennsylvania leaders.


In late April news reached us that the Vermont Fish and Wildlife Board had voted to ban the possession and use by hunters of natural lures based on deer urine or other fluids, beginning in 2016. But what caught our eye in the release was a reference to wildlife veterinarian Walter Cottrell.


“Dr. Cottrell has worked closely with the Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department as a contract wildlife veterinarian since his retirement as wildlife veterinarian for Pennsylvania,” the release stated. “He presented on the science of CWD to the Fish and Wildlife Board at its April 22 meeting.”


<span style="font-weight: bold">Cottrell told Vermont officials that deer urine lures are not tested for CWD, nor is it possible to track and recall bottles of lure that have been sold from a facility that later tests positive for the disease.</span>


<span style="font-weight: bold">Captive deer populations have been implicated in the spread of CWD in several states, Cottrell noted. While many captive deer facilities claim that their facilities are '”CWD-free,” urine lures from different sources are commonly mixed, so hunters are unable to tell the origin of their product.


The first case of CWD in Pennsylvania was recorded in a captive deer facility that was considered CWD-free and was selling deer urine lures online, Cottrell pointed out,</span>


Therefore, implementing strong preventative measures is the only tool available to combat this disease, Cottrell said, adding that banning natural deer urine lures is one of the few things wildlife managers can do to prevent the spread of CWD into Vermont, or anywhere else.


But it won’t happen anytime soon in Pennsylvania.



http://www.outdoornews.com/May-2015/A-fo...acts-CWD-fight/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,467 Posts
Why not require all deer urine processors to have their product tested for prions before marketing them? They would need to send the results to GC or Dept. of AG before putting lures on the shelf.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,576 Posts
People usually have to learn the hard way. It wouldn't be a "controversy" if people hadn't got use to using deer urine for attracting deer on a deer hunt. Deer urine been available at sporting goods stores for decades. Why I remember twenty years ago, a co worker stopped at a captive deer farm to buy deer urine, the cost which was too expensive for me. Moving from spot to spot made me a poor candidate to use the deer urine.
Using deer urine usually means the hunters stay in one place, reducing the necessity of getting in better shape. Now the ideal hunt for some is sitting on a tree stand, overlooking a feeder, watched by a trail cam. In some states, such is now legal.

Banning the use of deer urine to attract deer would change the way some hunters hunt. It's not just the deer urine, it is the effect on hunting methods of some hunters. Therein lies the big problem.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24,796 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
stoolshooter said:
Why not require all deer urine processors to have their product tested for prions before marketing them? They would need to send the results to GC or Dept. of AG before putting lures on the shelf.

There is no test for the prions in a live deer or the urine. Having a so called CWD (free) certified herd is no guarantee CWD doesn't exist within the herd.

The only test for CWD requires taking part of the brain stem for testing.

No urine can be tested for CWD. No test exists.

The herd certification relies on visual inspection of the herd, overall, and over time. No deaths with a positive, and no signs of the disease provide the herd certification.

Second, urine is imported form out of state farms as well. So PA could require all sorts of things for the PA deer farmers to sell urine. But we would be an island in the national supply chain.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
13,724 Posts
I agree with Doctor Cottrell. I‘ve been saying for well over a decade that any state that doesn’t prohibit the use of ALL urine based cervid lure is being extremely foolish and reckless with the future of our resources.

That comment fully includes all of our past and present Commissioners. But, I also think it is now way too late and that horse has already not only left the barn but has been gone so long it has become a lost cause that can’t be reversed.

I applaud Vermont for being more proactive and responsible with their resources than Pennsylvania was.

Dick Bodenhorn
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
13,724 Posts
Hunterknapp16 said:
There is no proof that urine even spreads it.
I believe that has been very well proven and documented.

In fact once the urine from a CWD infected deer hits the ground it becomes much more reactive then it was with just nose to nose contact. I don’t remember the exact percentage but if I am not mistaken it was at least a hundred times more volatile once it was in the soil.

Dick Bodenhorn
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
958 Posts
Hey buddy want to buy some real deer lure (says the shady guy opening his trench coat). Its the good stuff, real pee.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24,796 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
outofstater said:
I thought this became law last year in Pa. or was it just in my CWD-2 area?
In any CWD Disease management area
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25,493 Posts
There is no proof that urine even spreads it.
Infected cervids urinate/defecate onto the ground. Prions may be present in both waste sources, therefore the soils become contaminated with CWD prions.

Some years ago I read an article about a captive cervid operation in CO that was decimated by CWD. After the animals were gone, attempts were made to eradicate the prions by removing/replacing the soil in the pen areas and trying various means to "sterilize" the soil.

Within short order CWD prions were again present in the soil.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,560 Posts
OK this is where "the science" gets confusing. Well at least for someone like me.

How can we tell the CWD prions are present in the soil?
Well you test the soil and find them; Right?

( not sure if this is right or not) someone please help.

OK lets say it is right and we can test the soil to find the prions.

How do we know if it came from the urine? Is there a test to locate it in the urine?
Seems there is no test to find it in urine or we would be using it to screen the captive herds.

So how do we arrive at the conclusion that it could be spread via urine when we can't test for it in urine.

I think the answers would be both interesting and educational. Waugh!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25,493 Posts
Last I'd read anything about it, researchers were working on a protocol for detecting evidence of prions in the blood, which once perfected, would permit live testing of animals.

Perhaps not the prions themselves, but evidence that prions had been present at some point?

CWD has been identified for roughly 40 years.

How long have researchers been trying to find a more accurate detection protocol or cure, for the most common cancers and other diseases in humans?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,622 Posts
jimbridger said:
So how do we arrive at the conclusion that it could be spread via urine when we can't test for it in urine.

I think the answers would be both interesting and educational. Waugh!
And that is a question that has been asked and has gone unanswered before. How do we determine their are prions in soil but we can't determine that they exist in urine? How are we linking it to urine? Seems like that should be easily answered.

Knee jerk reactions that have not been shown to slow or stop the spread of the disease based upon what we actually know. That seems to be the operational standard for CWD.

Even some research suggesting cervids will build immunity to the disease. Maybe like EHD, it will run it's course and the herd will end up stronger in the long term.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
13,724 Posts
dpms said:
jimbridger said:
So how do we arrive at the conclusion that it could be spread via urine when we can't test for it in urine.

I think the answers would be both interesting and educational. Waugh!
And that is a question that has been asked and has gone unanswered before. How do we determine their are prions in soil but we can't determine that they exist in urine? How are we linking it to urine? Seems like that should be easily answered.

Knee jerk reactions that have not been shown to slow or stop the spread of the disease based upon what we actually know. That seems to be the operational standard for CWD.

Even some research suggesting cervids will build immunity to the disease. Maybe like EHD, it will run it's course and the herd will end up stronger in the long term.
I don’t think they are kneejerk reactions at all. I think it is much more a matter of using precautions to protect resources that some of us consider to be mighty darn important based on research that has led to both knowledge and facts.

Here are some links to where that knowledge comes from.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060414013751.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2658766/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2680674/

http://michigan.gov/emergingdiseases/0,4579,7-186-25806-67718--,00.html

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=1253813&mode=2

Dick Bodenhorn
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,622 Posts
I don't like to open links. Within those links is there anything that states how soil can be tested for prions but urine cannot? Is there anything in there stating that the urine is responsible for prions in the soil as determined by testing of the urine for prions that links urine to the actual prions in the soil?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
13,724 Posts
dpms said:
I don't like to open links. Within those links is there anything that states how soil can be tested for prions but urine cannot? Is there anything in there stating that the urine is responsible for prions in the soil as determined by testing of the urine for prions that links urine to the actual prions in the soil?
If you would open links to learn the facts you wouldn’t have to ask others to spoon feed you. But since it is obviously too much to ask for you to educate yourself, even after someone else already did the research of find the links, I guess I will at least answer your question. The answer to your question is yes. The Scientists who have spent decades studying CWD are now very much convinced that CWD is spread through both urine and feces.

I didn’t however look for how they did their research, nor did I question why or how they were able make that determination without first being able to test the urine for prions. I have to assume that they used the best research methods available to make their determinations though.

If you have issues with the facts, as reported by the Scientists, I can only suggest you read the links to learn more about the subject before making further comments suggesting you know more about CWD than those who have spent decades studying the subject.

Dick Bodenhorn
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,252 Posts
R. S. B. said:
dpms said:
I don't like to open links. Within those links is there anything that states how soil can be tested for prions but urine cannot? Is there anything in there stating that the urine is responsible for prions in the soil as determined by testing of the urine for prions that links urine to the actual prions in the soil?
If you would open links to learn the facts you wouldn’t have to ask others to spoon feed you. But since it is obviously too much to ask for you to educate yourself, even after someone else already did the research of find the links, I guess I will at least answer your question. The answer to your question is yes. The Scientists who have spent decades studying CWD are now very much convinced that CWD is spread through both urine and feces.

I didn’t however look for how they did their research, nor did I question why or how they were able make that determination without first being able to test the urine for prions. I have to assume that they used the best research methods available to make their determinations though.

If you have issues with the facts, as reported by the Scientists, I can only suggest you read the links to learn more about the subject before making further comments suggesting you know more about CWD than those who have spent decades studying the subject.

Dick Bodenhorn
Dick I just read thru your links and I don't see any of the research that says it is transmitted thru urine. I only saw a couple of comments of "likely" which means they have no proof and it is just an hypothesis.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,622 Posts
R. S. B. said:
If you would open links to learn the facts you wouldn’t have to ask others to spoon feed you.
I don't open most links because I was burnt a few times by doing so. It would be nice that links and content were posted.

But since it is obviously too much to ask for you to educate yourself, even after someone else already did the research of find the links, I guess I will at least answer your question.
Nice. Always good to see a personal shot in there in these discussions.
You are assuming I have not read up on CWD aren't you because I asked if anything in the links you posted contained something. Maybe, I have read the content of those links before and know that there is nothing in there stating how they can test for prions in soil but not urine, and how it was determined that the prions are coming from urine?

The answer to your question is yes. The Scientists who have spent decades studying CWD are now very much convinced that CWD is spread through both urine and feces.
Based upon what evidence? Is there scientific evidence backed up by data that shows the presence of prions in urine?

I didn’t however look for how they did their research, nor did I question why or how they were able make that determination without first being able to test the urine for prions. I have to assume that they used the best research methods available to make their determinations though.
Taking quite a big leap of faith there aren't you? Despite any scientific evidence, "it just has to be".

If you have issues with the facts, as reported by the Scientists, I can only suggest you read the links to learn more about the subject before making further comments suggesting you know more about CWD than those who have spent decades studying the subject.
I have never stated that I know more than the researchers and I have every right to question CWD plans and the hype that is associated with it based on the facts that we know about it from those same researchers.

It is called due diligence, something you are usually quite fond of.

If they can test soil for prions, why can they not test urine for the same prions. If there is no data proving the presence of prions in urine, why are we assuming that it is urine that is spreading the disease?
 
1 - 20 of 37 Posts
Top