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Discussion Starter #1
Ok,,I'm still new to the in-line game....so this may seem like a dumb question.....or maybe an obvious answer, but has anyone ever "compared" shooting their in-line with the substitute Black Powders vs. the Real ones such as Goex, ect.?

The reason I ask is I have shot some excellent loads using Blackhorn 209 at 100gr. But last weekend at my local Club we were plinking with flinters and I had my new in-line (taking much abuse of course) and I was shooting a 240gr. lead bullet with a T\C sabot over 50gr. of Goex FF.

The targets were only at 35 yards but the gun was shooting dead on, easy to reload with a swab on every 5th shot or so.

I was just thinking of testing the Goex with a 325 FTX bullet and instead of using 100gr. of Blackhorn, perhaps trying from 100 up to 120gr. of Goex FF.

Just wondering if anyone had done this?

Thanks

SW
 

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MOST if not ALL folks that shoot inlines shoot a BP substitute as they don't want to have to deal with the horrible fouling and the sulphur and the corrosive properties and the low velocities and the hydroscopic nature of BP and the impact sensitivity and......get the picture?
 

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Congratulations, you have rediscovered the load for the US Gov't 50 caliber carbine which was introduced in approx 1866. A great many of the early cartridge guns shot great with shallow fast twist barrels and about your load of real black. All of my in-line guns are percussion utilizing No 11, caps. They also all have round ball rifling. The little 32 will put five into a postage stamp at 75 ft. I don't shoot anything but real black.

many don't realize that the subs have their own problems. Pyroduh is more corrosive than black. Trip 7 suffers from the famous crud ring. Some have ignition problems. Black ignites at a lower temp and is therefore easier to ignite. As for the infrequency of wiping the bore. I am convinced that the load tightness, powder charge and barrel length will dictate how clean a load burns. If a load is not tight, or there is substantial powder still burning when the projectile exits the muzzle, fouling increases dramatically. Having powder still burning in the bore, is a factor of whether the powder is consumed before the projectile exits the bore. Most barrels have a sweet spot, a load that burns most efficiently for the projectile and the bore length. If too much powder is still burning when the projectile exits, a good part of it is wasted with no proportional increase in velocity or energy. When the powder burns without pressure, the fouling goes way up.

Your load, which is light to moderate for any gun above a 40 caliber, was consuming the powder before the bullet exited the muzzle. it burned cleaner.

For me target shooting is multiple consistent pleasant loads. Beating my shoulder to a pulp with $5.00 bullets and excessive pellet feeds has lost all semblance of plinking or target shooting
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks Zim!! I guess I was born to late!! Again, shooting the in-line with only 50gr. of BP was like shooting a 22LR only way more accurate....barrel fouling was pretty minimal....and for plinking it was fun, cheap, and fun. Oh.....and did I say fun?

SW
 

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mightyjoeyoung said:
MOST if not ALL folks that shoot inlines shoot a BP substitute as they don't want to have to deal with the horrible fouling and the sulphur and the corrosive properties and the low velocities and the hydroscopic nature of BP and the impact sensitivity and......get the picture?
Guess what ? Not sure about BH209, but all other BP substitutes have all of the qualities you mention above. If you are so sure of your statement, try shooting your ML with say Pyrodex, and don't clean it for a couple of days. Guarenteed pitting will be the result. 777, and APP/Shckey's Gold are like sponges, when it comes to Hygroscopic. Fouling? 777 has the worst crud ring making seating subsequent sabot shots very difficult. Now I'm not against using these sub powders, they all have thier applications, but don't fool yourself into a ruined ML, or poor performance from powder which has deteriorated.
 

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I have been using this, Hardly smells at all, Ignites quick, very accurate in my flinters and inlines. 2F
Schuetzen Black Powder
Loading Information
Muzzleloading Firearms
Patched Roundball Caliber Load Granulation
.32 20-40 grains 3Fg
.36 20-40 grains 3Fg
.45 30-50 grains 3Fg
.50 40-60 grains 2Fg
.50 40-60 grains 1 1/2Fg
.54 40-60 grains 2Fg
.54 40-60 grains 1 1/2Fg
.58 50-60 grains 1 1/2Fg
.58 50-60 grains 1Fg

Stan
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Well.....just for kicks today, I went to the (soggy) range today and took the new in-line and chrony along. Using 100gr. Blackhorn powder, a MMP sabot, and the Hornady 325 Flex Tip bullet, I was getting an average velocity of 1725fps.

Then I loaded 100gr. of Goex FF using the MMP sabot, and the Hornady 325gr. Flex Tip bullet. I was getting an average velocity of 1,450fps.

Fouling with the Goex was not incredibly terrible. However, it was getting cold, wet and I did want to try pushing the Goex powder up to 110gr. and then to 120gr. to see what the velocity would go to.....but my fingers told me to go back another day!!

Accuracy using the Goex was as good as the Blackhorn.

FWIW

SW
 

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Trying to compare other powders against blackhorn209 is like having a healthy 20 year old join a handicap race and brag about winning it. Blackhorn209 will smoke all of the "competition".
 

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frontier gander said:
Trying to compare other powders against blackhorn209 is like having a healthy 20 year old join a handicap race and brag about winning it. Blackhorn209 will smoke all of the "competition".
Bet it dosn't out smoke black.
Out stink it either.
This is where those who love it..those into muzzleloading for the sport, as opposed to those in it for the hunt, separate.

Not a dig by any means. There is just two different types of muzzleloading groups making the world go around.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Well.....hold on a second Gent's. All I was trying to do was compare the difference of the two powders when shooting the same chunk of metal.

Now, I can see from the published Blackhorn Data that Blackhorn says I can load up to 120gr for a 350gr. Hornady FPB & Sabot combination. So, loading the 325gr. with a sabot should be within a safe pressure limit.

However, I can't find any load data for the Goex Powder that tells me I can "push" the Goex load for a 325 bullet\Sabot combination up to 120gr. of black powder.

According to Goex, the biggest Conical they show is a 370gr. and the lightest load is 80gr. giving it a velocity of 1200fps, and the heaviest is 100gr. giving it a velocity of 1400fps.

Well, I'm already getting 1450fps with 100gr. of Goex FF, but my question is, if I increase the Goex FF load to 120gr., is that safe....AND, what kind of velocity increase will I expect to get?

If the velocity increase is only 50 or 75fps, then it's not worth the trouble. But if it's a legitimate 200fps, (which would bring a BP load to about 1650fps) then I would simply shoot the Goex FF powder.

For all of the distances that I'm going to kill a deer (99% under 200 yards) a 325gr. bullet with a MV at 1650fps will more than do the job.

But.....that's only if it will "get there."

Sw
 

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I am alittle confused about blackhorn 209 i have a knight original disc and a cva ulta mag bolt action both are 45cal can you shoot black horn 209 in these guns or do you have to get a differant breech plug
 

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I get a big laugh out of all the guys out there who are trying to reinvent the wheel.

Black has it's place. The substitutes have their place, and that is certainly not in flintlocks. Black has certain advantages and disadvantages, the substitutes like wise.

Honestly, I do not even own a gun that takes 209 primers, although I have several percussion in-lines. I do remember when Pyroduh first hit the market and all the poofing about it. And then there was Golden Powder, and a few others that fell by the wayside. I can use holy black in all my guns.

I don't understand why some folks need elephant loads to shoot a white tail. If I went into the woods with a 458 Win Mag for deer, folks would laugh at me for being so over gunned. Yet they do it all the time with muzzleloaders, without a second thought.

Billy Dixon hit an Indian at 7/8 of a mile with a 50-90 Sharps. So many folks want to use heavier loads. What they don't realize is that less powder and a longer bullet will carry further down range.
 

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Landngroove said:
mightyjoeyoung said:
MOST if not ALL folks that shoot inlines shoot a BP substitute as they don't want to have to deal with the horrible fouling and the sulphur and the corrosive properties and the low velocities and the hydroscopic nature of BP and the impact sensitivity and......get the picture?
Guess what ? Not sure about BH209, but all other BP substitutes have all of the qualities you mention above. If you are so sure of your statement, try shooting your ML with say Pyrodex, and don't clean it for a couple of days. Guarenteed pitting will be the result. 777, and APP/Shckey's Gold are like sponges, when it comes to Hygroscopic. Fouling? 777 has the worst crud ring making seating subsequent sabot shots very difficult. Now I'm not against using these sub powders, they all have thier applications, but don't fool yourself into a ruined ML, or poor performance from powder which has deteriorated.
Yes...they may have SOME of the properties of BP but you're flat wrong when you say they all act like BP. With the exception of pyrodex...which I have trouble even finding on the shelves around any of my local sporting goods stores any more, the substitutes are nowhere near as bad at absorbing water or as fast to corrode a barrel as bp. 777, Shokey's Gold, the old Clean Shot/Clear Shot, BH 209 are all sulfur free and while the residue left in the barrel AFTER FIRING may well absorb water, it won't turn into sulfuric acid like the burnt residue from BP will. It is the un-removed moisture attracted to the cooling fowling in the barrel on the part of the irresponsible gun owner that causes rust and corrosion with those powders...same thing would happen to smokeless if left long enough in the barrel of a modern rifle. I have shot them ALL from goex back when PA first opened the late flintlock season to BH 209 and EVERYTHING in between. Won't touch a pyrodex brand with a 10 foot pole, the old clean/clear shot stuff would start to degrade the instant you opened the can and would even turn a nice mustard yellow to tell you it was pretty much shot. 777 might leave a crud ring, but that's usually only because your primer is too hot and I have never had that problem with a regular 209 primer. BH 209 is an AMAZING powder allbeit a little over priced imo but hey...it flat out performs. I LOVE Shockey's Gold. Even use it in my flinters and it works flawlessly for me. Clean up is easy and with its low ignition temp, I have never had hang fire issues. Plus, I can leave it loaded as long as its kept in a cold area and no condensation is allowed to form in/on the gun.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Zim,

I can't answer your last question. I do know that I love to hunt doe with my Marlin 45-70 with my own handloads. I use the same 325gr. Hornady Flex Tip bullet that has a rather mild (for the Marlin 45-70) 1700fps. This bullet is sub-MOA out to 300 yards and it won't cut a deer in half when it hits one. Now....if you load it at maximum....that's a whole 'nother story.

But.....on the in-line matter, the cost of Blackhorn $25 for ten oz. at Powder Valley...plus shipping. Goex cost $17 for a pound (16 oz.) and quite frankly, the Goex isn't all that much different to clean than the Blackhorn.

So....if I can get pretty close to the 1700fps, shooting 120gr of Goex, then that's what I'll do. However, so far I've not found where that is a safe load to shoot.
 

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OT: 325grain bullet in a 45-70? I shoot a 500 grain bullet over 65 grains of compressed 3fg Out of my trapdoor, it kills the metal rams at 500 meters.

Some of the subs are much lighter in mass than Black powder. If loads are measured by BP equivalent volume, some give more shots per pound than black. I know I get about 100 shots per pound for my rifles, and about 250 shots per pound for the pistols.

I do have a container of trip 7 that I have never opened. And a 30 yr old can of Pyroduh that it 3/4 full.

My primary focus in muzzleloaders is target shooting. Hunting is just a minor related activity. I want accuracy to be consistent from the first shot to the 100th shot. Whether it shoots with a high or low arc, is of little consideration for me.


The substitutes see very little use at muzzle loader competitions. Some are simply not as consistent from shot to shot as is required for fine target accuracy.

Black seems to be more consistent, although some brands of black seem to be more consistent than other brands. Some shooters report 10 shot chrony results with less than 15 fps variation between shots. That alone is so consistent it seems contrived.
 

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It seems to me when it comes to subs, people use em to cut corners and to take the easy way out.Every person I ever talked to that bought an inline said they bought it cause they didn,t want to bother and learn how to shoot a flinty.It,s their way to say they hunt with a m/loader.It,s just like archery.These releases and such they use is a joke.I still do it the good ole fashiond way but to each his own.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Well, I've been hunting with a flinter since 1980 and using mostly PRB until about 5 years ago when I switched to the Hornady Pa. Conical and a T\C bore button. I shoot that over 100gr. of Goex and it kills deer PDQ.

But I bot this in-line for hunting in Allegheny County. It was this or a slug gun....and I just hate hunting with a slug gun. I had to when I was a kid.....so it's a psychosocial thing.

To me, these in lines are just rifles without brass!!

However....the point of my post is "Is a 120gr. load of Goex under a 325 Hornady FTX with a Sabot" safe to shoot from an Encore Endevor barrel?

Anything else posted on this thread is irrelevant.

SW
 
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