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Actually, Minnesota, Michigan, florida North Carolina all have gun seasons during the rut. Now, I'm an archery hunter, so I'm not advocating advocating for an earlier rifle season, or for any changes for that matter. But we all can argue one point or another till our fingers fingers bleed, but the ultimate decisions are made by professionals! And km thankful for that!
"Professional" what? Politicians? Lobbyists? Or Biologists?
By and large, it hasn't been the latter of those... The first two have a demonstrated tendency to ignore the 3rd....
 

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nope. wasnt saying they targets bucks, just pointing out that the kill is almost 50-50. if that would continue into the 7th week with the same number of "average" kills, that could translate into another 10,000 buck being killed (and 10,000 doe too) based on an "average"
Sorry bo - perhaps I was not clear in my post. I was quoting your informative post to grab the archery harvest numbers from last year. CMP was claiming that archers predominantly target bucks.
Archery harvested 45% of all bucks but only 31% of all does, that seems like predominantly hunting bucks does it not? If you break down the percentages of the individual seasons rifle is 40% bucks and 60% does while archery is 51% bucks and 49% does over the last 8 years.

So assuming that the more “shoot what shows up first” nature of rifle is more indicative of buck to doe ratios then the archery harvest skews 11% to favor shooting bucks over does.
 

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Archery season for antlerless deer is in season now, right here in Penna.


rifle season is in for monster bucks too, right here in Penna. however this stage presents a challenge. the experts here should not have any problem being successful. its a 3 step process.


1. go shed hunting on a red tag farm, locate monster sheds.


2. hunt the same property until you locate the monster antlerless buck that shed its antlers.


3. fill the tag, take it to the taxidermist with the sheds.
 

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Actually, Minnesota, Michigan, florida North Carolina all have gun seasons during the rut. Now, I'm an archery hunter, so I'm not advocating advocating for an earlier rifle season, or for any changes for that matter. But we all can argue one point or another till our fingers fingers bleed, but the ultimate decisions are made by professionals! And km thankful for that!
"Professional" what? Politicians? Lobbyists? Or Biologists?
By and large, it hasn't been the latter of those... The first two have a demonstrated tendency to ignore the 3rd....
Archery season for antlerless deer is in season now, right here in Penna.
Keep preaching, but no one will ever utilize the red tag season like it could be used! And that is a shame, but I think that if it were utilized more and if you were able to harvest more than one deer per farm it would improve involvement.
 

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It's much easier for people to come to the archery forum and ---- and moan about what bowhunters "are getting" rather than look internally and find a vision to put in 20 years to 30 years of work to make it happen.


So far, out of all the people that complain about the UBP all I've seen for movement is complaints about bowhunters 'getting unfair advantages'. Rather than putting that energy into complaining about someone else's unfair advantage, put that energy towards making positive inroads in your own favorite pursuit.
These statements get invalidated a bit by the fact that while the UBP was "working so hard for 20-30 years" to obtain their visioned goals, they vehemently opposed opportunties for other arms/seasons.... and continue to do so to this day.
And many rifle hunters haven’t been vehemently opposed to literally anything the archery contingency lobbies for?
 

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Archery harvested 45% of all bucks but only 31% of all does, that seems like predominantly hunting bucks does it not? If you break down the percentages of the individual seasons rifle is 40% bucks and 60% does while archery is 51% bucks and 49% does over the last 8 years.

So assuming that the more “shoot what shows up first” nature of rifle is more indicative of buck to doe ratios then the archery harvest skews 11% to favor shooting bucks over does.
So what??? I'm a hunter. I hunt with anything the state allows. I'll decide. I'll also decide when and with what I shoot my buck and my does. That's what ya get when you don't have a stigma about what weapons you use.....LOT'S of choices.
 

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Archery harvested 45% of all bucks but only 31% of all does, that seems like predominantly hunting bucks does it not?
Um....no, absolutely not. The success ratio between bucks and does for other weapons absolutely does not change the fact that archers kill 49 does for every 51 bucks, essentially one for one. Therefore archers shoot bucks and does nearly equally.....I guess you could argue the majority of the harvest is bucks, but very close statistically.


So assuming that the more “shoot what shows up first” nature of rifle is more indicative of buck to doe ratios then the archery harvest skews 11% to favor shooting bucks over does.
Lots of meat hunters in the woods in rifle season that do not give a rat's patooty about antlers - look at how many hunters want to change AR regulations. They just want meat for the freezer.

Remember how we hear about a bunch of deer camps are empty the first weekend when it is buck-only hunting? The next weekend comes along, and they show up to camp when they can target does and legal bucks....this type of strategy obviously lends itself to more does being taken in rifle.

In conclusion, archers harvest bucks and does at nearly equal rates.....while rifle hunters predominantly target does for their harvests.
 

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Archery harvested 45% of all bucks but only 31% of all does, that seems like predominantly hunting bucks does it not? If you break down the percentages of the individual seasons rifle is 40% bucks and 60% does while archery is 51% bucks and 49% does over the last 8 years.

So assuming that the more “shoot what shows up first” nature of rifle is more indicative of buck to doe ratios then the archery harvest skews 11% to favor shooting bucks over does.
So what??? I'm a hunter. I hunt with anything the state allows. I'll decide. I'll also decide when and with what I shoot my buck and my does. That's what ya get when you don't have a stigma about what weapons you use.....LOT'S of choices.
The point was that the PGC stated they couldn’t expand any muzzleloader opportunities for bucks due to concerns about the herd but then they give archers, who primarily target bucks, another week after their highest harvest ever.

So since it is clear that the herd could withstand additional harvest they why was that additional opportunity given only to archers who already have the longest season by several weeks? That week could have easily been given to the early muzzleloader hunters with similar harvest numbers but it was not.

Also I did hunt archery for over a decade before deciding that my love of hunting wasn’t worth the risk of wounding a deer so I gave it up. If there comes a time when bows improve enough to meet my requirements then I’ll most likely pick it back up. Until then I hunt rifle, inline and occasionally flintlock with rifle being my preferred option which leaves me with 3 weeks in the fall season to hunt. I’m not sure some additional days to hunt is to much to ask for.
 

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The point was that the PGC stated they couldn’t expand any muzzleloader opportunities for bucks due to concerns about the herd but then they give archers, who primarily target bucks, another week after their highest harvest ever.
No matter how many times you try to claim it, the numbers show that archers shoot a doe for every buck they shoot.

Archers absolutely do not “primarily target bucks”!!!

Please kindly find a new marching tune.
 

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And many rifle hunters haven’t been vehemently opposed to literally anything the archery contingency lobbies for?
Only when it comes at the expense of other seasons/arms, and perhaps out of spite that the Archery Orgs have opposed every single initiative that hasn't directly benefited them and them alone....

Speaking only for myself, I don't oppose the extension of archery into the 3rd week of November.
I oppose the concept that ONLY archers should hunt deer in the 3rd week of November, and that ONLY archers should hunt bucks prior to "rifle" season.
 

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Archery harvested 45% of all bucks but only 31% of all does, that seems like predominantly hunting bucks does it not? If you break down the percentages of the individual seasons rifle is 40% bucks and 60% does while archery is 51% bucks and 49% does over the last 8 years.

So assuming that the more “shoot what shows up first” nature of rifle is more indicative of buck to doe ratios then the archery harvest skews 11% to favor shooting bucks over does.
Lets cut the bull...the reasons more doe are taken by "gun" hunters are:

(1) Shorter seasons, to protect the resource.

(2) Many "archers" AKA DEER HUNTERS save a doe tag or two to hunt gun and the ML seasons.

I'm sure you are advocating for time to "gun" hunt the rut so "gun hunters" can "shoot what shows up first". :rotfl:
 

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Archery harvested 45% of all bucks but only 31% of all does, that seems like predominantly hunting bucks does it not? If you break down the percentages of the individual seasons rifle is 40% bucks and 60% does while archery is 51% bucks and 49% does over the last 8 years.

So assuming that the more “shoot what shows up first” nature of rifle is more indicative of buck to doe ratios then the archery harvest skews 11% to favor shooting bucks over does.
Lets cut the bull...the reasons more doe are taken by "gun" hunters are:

(1) Shorter seasons, to protect the resource.

(2) Many "archers" AKA DEER HUNTERS save a doe tag or two to hunt gun and the ML seasons.

I'm sure you are advocating for time to "gun" hunt the rut so "gun hunters" can "shoot what shows up first".
Where is the dern like button on this thing!!!! Most arguements, coming from that side of the house soun an awful lot like boohoo complaints.....
 

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The point was that the PGC stated they couldn’t expand any muzzleloader opportunities for bucks due to concerns about the herd but then they give archers, who primarily target bucks, another week after their highest harvest ever.
Low impact weapon vs higher impact weapon. simple reasoning.
So since it is clear that the herd could withstand additional harvest they why was that additional opportunity given only to archers who already have the longest season by several weeks? That week could have easily been given to the early muzzleloader hunters with similar harvest numbers but it was not.
Your opinion...but my opinion is you under estimate what a early ML opportunity for bucks would have on the resource...perhaps a early flintlock opportunity could have been a possibility...but I can't speak for the PGC.
Also I did hunt archery for over a decade before deciding that my love of hunting wasn’t worth the risk of wounding a deer so I gave it up. If there comes a time when bows improve enough to meet my requirements then I’ll most likely pick it back up. Until then I hunt rifle, inline and occasionally flintlock with rifle being my preferred option which leaves me with 3 weeks in the fall season to hunt. I’m not sure some additional days to hunt is to much to ask for.
With a rifle??? :surprise2:
 

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Archery harvested 45% of all bucks but only 31% of all does, that seems like predominantly hunting bucks does it not? If you break down the percentages of the individual seasons rifle is 40% bucks and 60% does while archery is 51% bucks and 49% does over the last 8 years.

So assuming that the more “shoot what shows up first” nature of rifle is more indicative of buck to doe ratios then the archery harvest skews 11% to favor shooting bucks over does.
So what??? I'm a hunter. I hunt with anything the state allows. I'll decide. I'll also decide when and with what I shoot my buck and my does. That's what ya get when you don't have a stigma about what weapons you use.....LOT'S of choices.
The point was that the PGC stated they couldn’t expand any muzzleloader opportunities for bucks due to concerns about the herd but then they give archers, who primarily target bucks, another week after their highest harvest ever.

So since it is clear that the herd could withstand additional harvest they why was that additional opportunity given only to archers who already have the longest season by several weeks? That week could have easily been given to the early muzzleloader hunters with similar harvest numbers but it was not.

Also I did hunt archery for over a decade before deciding that my love of hunting wasn’t worth the risk of wounding a deer so I gave it up. If there comes a time when bows improve enough to meet my requirements then I’ll most likely pick it back up. Until then I hunt rifle, inline and occasionally flintlock with rifle being my preferred option which leaves me with 3 weeks in the fall season to hunt. I’m not sure some additional days to hunt is to much to ask for.
What’s with the underhanded comments about wounding deer with a bow? I see these shots taken quite often by rifle/muzzy guys, suggesting they archery hunters just wound deer left and right and leave them rotting all over the woods and they if you hit a deer literally anywhere with a rifle it will die....

Newsflash: I shed hunt A LOT and I can’t tell you how many dead deer I find that were lost by gun hunters, usually along the edges of power lines, gas lines, etc. And unfortunately, this becomes even more of an issue with muzzys/flintlocks as they often leave little to no blood trail to follow.

Again, not attacking rifle or muzzy hunters, but the reality is that far more deer are wounded a lost by hunters than by archery hunters.
 

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And many rifle hunters haven’t been vehemently opposed to literally anything the archery contingency lobbies for?
Only when it comes at the expense of other seasons/arms, and perhaps out of spite that the Archery Orgs have opposed every single initiative that hasn't directly benefited them and them alone....

Speaking only for myself, I don't oppose the extension of archery into the 3rd week of November.
I oppose the concept that ONLY archers should hunt deer in the 3rd week of November, and that ONLY archers should hunt bucks prior to "rifle" season.
You know, I wouldn’t be that opposed to a proposal for a 3 day muzzy season during the rut, much like they do in states like Iowa it Illinois. But the rules would be flintlocks or in lines, by no scopes. A modern scoped in-line shoots better than many rifles like the 30-30 or 45-70. It’s nothing to have a scoped in-line that is deadly accurate out to 250 yards.

THAT is the biggest concern I think most people have when it comes to talking about muzzys during the rut, SCOPED IN LINES. They are essentially rifles and not even close to being considered a “primitive” weapon.

So I wouldn’t be all that opposed to having a 3 day season for flinters/open sighted in lines, with a special permit that you have to purchase, but not scoped in lines and rifles.

BTW, I’m not a member of the United Bowhunters or any other organization and I reckon the true vast majority of bow hunters in this state aren’t either. I’ve never lobbied the PGC for anything and I reckon most hunters haven’t either. This theory of some sort of “secret society” of bowhunters pulling the commissioners strings just makes me laugh every time I hear it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BUGLE BOY View Post
And many rifle hunters haven’t been vehemently opposed to literally anything the archery contingency lobbies for?

Only when it comes at the expense of other seasons/arms, and perhaps out of spite that the Archery Orgs have opposed every single initiative that hasn't directly benefited them and them alone....
So by this statement you believe that the archery season should be opposed because it takes opportunities away from other seasons/arms.
Speaking only for myself, I don't oppose the extension of archery into the 3rd week of November.
I oppose the concept that ONLY archers should hunt deer in the 3rd week of November, and that ONLY archers should hunt bucks prior to "rifle" season.
Here you say you "don't oppose the extension" which contradicts the first part. :beammeup:
 

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BTW, I’m not a member of the United Bowhunters or any other organization and I reckon the true vast majority of bow hunters in this state aren’t either. I’ve never lobbied the PGC for anything and I reckon most hunters haven’t either. This theory of some sort of “secret society” of bowhunters pulling the commissioners strings just makes me laugh every time I hear it.
X2

But some people need a bogyman to vent their frustrations.>:)
 

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You know, I wouldn’t be that opposed to a proposal for a 3 day muzzy season during the rut, much like they do in states like Iowa it Illinois. But the rules would be flintlocks or in lines, by no scopes. A modern scoped in-line shoots better than many rifles like the 30-30 or 45-70. It’s nothing to have a scoped in-line that is deadly accurate out to 250 yards.

THAT is the biggest concern I think most people have when it comes to talking about muzzys during the rut, SCOPED IN LINES. They are essentially rifles and not even close to being considered a “primitive” weapon.

So I wouldn’t be all that opposed to having a 3 day season for flinters/open sighted in lines, with a special permit that you have to purchase, but not scoped in lines and rifles.
.
I think it's kind of absurd to be ok with allowing a range-limited-by-lack-of-optics firearm, expressly because it less "effective" at cleanly harvesting a deer at longer ranges, but ok with iron sighted inlines, which you admit are just as accurate as 30/30 45/70s, but then not allow iron-sighted centerfire as well..

Splitting hairs/false equivalance to create/maintain the conditions conducive to keeping the rut/pre-rut strung weapons only...
 
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