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So obviously the hot topic of the weekend here, and most of the other social media platforms has been the elk drawing. There seems to be (3) issues casting doubt and frustration around it…
-the epic failure of the FB live broadcast
-the drawing being held prior and Saturdays event just being a “mock” drawing
-the amount of non residents drawn

Heres a few things I learned today while talking with a few different PGC folks about these issues:

-The epic failure of the FB live broadcat…
It is believed that FB actually blocked the feed preventing the live stream. Multiple test runs had been successful earlier in the week but when they tried it on Saturday it didn’t work. Other PGC employees were able to use their personal accounts and live steam but the PGC page was blocked. FB has been know to do this to hunting and firearm related pages in the past. It can’t really be confirmed and if the PGC would try to run it down they would likely risk further censorship.

-The drawing being held prior to Saturday…

I’m told that this is just the way the company that is contracted to run the drawing operates
it. Apparently it’s a pretty technical and convoluted system with the way the new zone preference options are set up now. I’ll be honest it kinda made sense to me when it was explained but I’ll be danged if I could repeat what was told to me with much accuracy. Lol

-Non residents

There were additional tags allotted this year including the addition of bulls to the late season. More tags to be drawn mean more chances for non residents to draw and also more of a reason for non residents to apply. The continued growth in popularity of our elk hunt is also driving the non-resident application increases. This year is the FIRST YEAR EVER for the non resident award to be over 10%.
*disclaimer: I am personally not an ‘anti non-resident’ guy but I do recognize both sides.
 

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IMO the application cost should be considerably more for non residents. What other state can you hunt elk where residents and non residents are on a equal playing field to get drawn??

I know, I know it’s more of a novelty/money maker than anything else. And what the heck do I care, I never have even applied...
 

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the drawing doesnt have to convoluted or technical. make a form of all the elk zones, have a list of how many cow tags and bull tags are allotted for each zone.
draw an app, take a look at what the preference is on it, and check that off the check list for that zone and sex.
move on to the next app and so on. eventually all the tags get issued for each zone.
if a name gets drawn and those preferences are filled and the applicant didnt use the "any elk, any zone" fall back option then they dont get a tag.
if they did use the option then simply assign them to the next zone and available bull or cow tag...easy
 

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Non-resident tags need to be capped. As an example, no more than 1 bull tag during archery and late season should go to a non resident. Also, the application fee for non residents should be significantly higher.
 

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Sounds like lame excuses as usual to me. With under 200 tags available every year, they should cap the NR licenses awarded. The application fee for NR should be significantly higher too. Funny how more tags were made available, the drawing done behind closed doors and more NR drew tags this year hmmmmm.
 

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I never thought in the past that there should be a limit on NR tags. That was because it never exceeded 10%. I always thought that was a reasonable number. But there are quite a few states who cap their elk tags at some certain percentage as being available to NR's. Most of those states are trying to reduce that percentage as well. As far as I'm concerned, turnabout is fair play. It was obvious during the drawing this year that there was an uptick in the amount of NR tags. I say it needs to be capped at no more than 10%. It usually says something like "nonresidents are limited to, but not guaranteed, 10% of the allocation."
For me, that is the only change I would make to the drawing. I have no problem with any other aspect of it.
 

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Playing devils advocate here.....

Consider the additional income NR's bring in vs residents- Food, Gas, Lodging, Souvenirs, Taxidermy/ Processing, License cost, etc.
Only helps our rural areas and keeps our hunting costs down.
 

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I just thought of another NR thing I would change. Instead of costing $250 for the license across the board, I would make it $400 for a cow tag and $750 fr a bull tag. Compared to other states and the quality of animals being taken here, those prices for NR elk tags are a bargain.
 

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Playing devils advocate here.....

Consider the additional income NR's bring in vs residents- Food, Gas, Lodging, Souvenirs, Taxidermy/ Processing, License cost, etc.
Only helps our rural areas and keeps our hunting costs down.
Put the Devil Bach in the box. With so few NR tags awarded. They will have very little impact on the local economy. And zero impact of keeping our hunting costs down.
 

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Put the Devil Bach in the box. With so few NR tags awarded. They will have very little impact on the local economy. And zero impact of keeping our hunting costs down.
I agree. In fact, the majority of residents who get drawn hire a guide and contribute even more to the economy by making a few trips to the area before their hunt versus just flying or driving in the week of the hunt.
 

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Playing devils advocate here.....

Consider the additional income NR's bring in vs residents- Food, Gas, Lodging, Souvenirs, Taxidermy/ Processing, License cost, etc.
Only helps our rural areas and keeps our hunting costs down.
I would think the residents would bring way more money into that area than a non resident. All the same you mention has to be bought by residents. Plus residents probably bring in family and friends who spend money. Non residents I think not. They just go right to the outfitter who picks them up and they never spend any money locally.
I just thought of another NR thing I would change. Instead of costing $250 for the license across the board, I would make it $400 for a cow tag and $750 fr a bull tag. Compared to other states and the quality of animals being taken here, those prices for NR elk tags are a bargain.
Agree 100 % it costs me huge money to apply for wyoming and arizona Why does that not apply to non residents.
Playing devils advocate here.....

Consider the additional income NR's bring in vs residents- Food, Gas, Lodging, Souvenirs, Taxidermy/ Processing, License cost, etc.
Only helps our rural areas and keeps our hunting costs down.
I think non residents add nothing to the economy up there. Residents provide way more to the economy than them. Most non residents are hiring outfitters who pick them up and provide them with everything
 

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Kentucky has a 10% non resident quoto...many states don't even permit non residents to apply for various tags..
 

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I have stated this before and stand by it, with only 187 tags, NR should not even be allowed to apply. If it was 1000 tags no issues with NR applying. Just my thoughts on it and the drawing should not be done behind closed doors with 1 witness. Its a money grab, when it comes to NR's. I would be curious how many NR folks only by a license to apply for the Elk lottery and never step foot in PA to hunt. Yes i am aware of the bashing i will get.
 

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Kudu I like your approach to the NR and $, but even with your #s it’s still a bargain. I drew an elk tag in Wyoming after buying pts for 5 years and still paid over a grand!
 

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The problem with all of this is that the people on this thread are looking at the drawing differently than what it is intended for. It is NOT intended to administer tags to the longest applying hunters. It is intended to be a completely random drawing, where everyone in it has a chance to be awarded a tag. It is set up that way to have the maximum number of people applying as possible. People will not apply if they don't have a chance.
The reason for this is to generate as much money as possible to manage the herd, create more suitable habitat, grow the herd, and give out even more tags in the future.

NOBODY out there can deny that is being done. It is. I see it with my own eyes every year. New food plots, new infrastructure to access those plots. More and more collared elk being studied. More tags being awarded every year. In order to generate that maximum amount of money, NR's need to be included. Some people on here won't want to hear this, but everyone who hunts elk in this state, or even simply goes to look for them, has benefitted from nonresident application dollars.

There will be much less angst and consternation over the draw if people would just accept that fact. No matter what system is used, over 55,000 people appyling for 187 tags is a very, very long shot to be drawn and the vast majority of people never will be.
 

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Kudu I like your approach to the NR and $, but even with your #s it’s still a bargain. I drew an elk tag in Wyoming after buying pts for 5 years and still paid over a grand!
You had to have been in the special draw....but I hear you. I leave for Wyoming in 7 weeks. I had 8 points at $50 per point. And the license was around $700. So even on the regular draw, my NR Wyoming elk license cost me about $1,100. And I won't shoot anywhere near the bulls that are available here.
 

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IMO, the PGC could have came up with a better approach to the “preference” point system from day one. I also believe that with the severely limited number of tags available, non residents should have been excluded from the get go.

BUT, these things weren’t done and now they have too many people invested in the “system” to change it now.

Having said that, I still think that things could be done to actually give those with the most points “preference”, without alienating those with far less points or applying for the first time.

Option one would be adopting a 75/25 system like some western states have. In this system, 75% of the tags are guaranteed to those who have max points and the remaining 25% can go to anyone who has at least one chance in. So let’s say hypothetically that you have 100 tags. 75 of those would be guaranteed to go to those with max points with the draw for those tags coming only form they pool or people. The remaining 25 would be available to anyone who has at least a “name in the hat” so that they still have chances to draw a tag. Naturally, those who have the most points would theoretically have the best odds, but anyone could get lucky and draw.

The other way would be to transition to a weighted points system. In this system, there would be a minimum number of points needed to even be eligible for the draw. Colorado does this with coveted tags like sheep and goats and you have to at least have 3 points to even be in the game. Once you’ve reached the 3 point minimum, you are awarded “bonus” or “weighted” points to increase odds. It is calculated by app number into a different, random app number, then dividing that new app number by the amount of weighted points you have, plus one.

A third option would be to adopt a system like Nevada has where they square or cube your points, giving those the most points far greater odds than those what have less. For instance, if you have 20 points going into next season, you would actually have 80 chances, plus next year’s app. 81chances. If someone had 19 points going into next season, you would have 76 points plus your app, so 77 chances. This puts far more distance between those with max points and everyone else. For instance, someone with only 5 points going into next season would have 25 chances, plus their app, so 26 names in the hat. With this system, those with max points now have 55 more points than those with 5, instead of only 15. Again, more actual preference to those with more points, but still allowing ANYONE who puts in to possibly draw.

IMO, these systems could still be adopted now without alienating those with limited points but I highly doubt they will. It’s either that or totally eliminate this “points system” and to back to a true lottery, everyone’s name on the system ONCE. Whatever the case, this current system isn’t truly giving those with the most points “preference”…
 
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