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Problems????

I have been using the County Treasurer process to get a doe license for over sixty years and never once had a problem of not getting my license before I needed it. Never once had to call a County Treasurer to straighten out any problems.

I only used the on line system to purchase my regular license twice and one of those two times turned into a nightmare of phone calls and over six weeks without receiving the licenses I had paid for. It even cost me more to order on line, so it was even a nightmare I had to pay extra to get.

Nope I will never again buy my licenses on line if there is any other option available. I'll stick with, and much prefer, a 1950's system that works correctly over any new system that doesn't work correctly half the time or for that matter even a significantly smaller percentage of the time.

Dick Bodenhorn
Your sample size is statistically insignificant.
 

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Problems????

I have been using the County Treasurer process to get a doe license for over sixty years and never once had a problem of not getting my license before I needed it. Never once had to call a County Treasurer to straighten out any problems.

I only used the on line system to purchase my regular license twice and one of those two times turned into a nightmare of phone calls and over six weeks without receiving the licenses I had paid for. It even cost me more to order on line, so it was even a nightmare I had to pay extra to get.

Nope I will never again buy my licenses on line if there is any other option available. I'll stick with, and much prefer, a 1950's system that works correctly over any new system that doesn't work correctly half the time or for that matter even a significantly smaller percentage of the time.

Dick Bodenhorn
As a former employee, do you have actual numbers on error or problem rates? Or are we to deny our own experiences because they differ with yours?
I’ve been buying licenses online since it first became available here, and much longer for other states. I’ve had two problems, both resolved with a single phone call. Both in the last two years.
I am well acquainted with the fulfillment side of the process through my employment. I know bad things can happen, and do happen more often when dealing with a combination of lowest bidder and an antiquated front end like PALS.
I’ve been mailing my doe apps since the move to any CT issuing them for any WMU. Prior to then, well, let’s just say I had concierge tag service.
I’ve had 5x the problems with mailed doe apps in that period than I have from online PA license orders. I’ve had zero out of state problems, all online.

There’s several better ways to skin this cat than mailing to CTs. Dozens of other states do it, and have for a long time, but as usual, we in PA (as a whole) are too set in our ways and in denial to think a process improvement exists.

Again, I don’t think anyone is suggesting a complete elimination of the mail option. There would need to be at least a transition period. But I do foresee a completely online licensing system in the not so distant future. There’s simply too much cost savings and efficiency there for it not to happen, and realistically, the bottom line won’t even feel the drop in revenue from the adamant group that will refuse to make the change. It’ll be offset many times over by cost reductions.
 

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Yeah, the system works fine. Potential disaster averted, but just barely.

 

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Can't be done online with PALs? From PGC website:

Hunters may indicate their first, second and third WMU preference on the application. If the first WMU of choice is sold out, the Treasurer will issue a license for the second or third WMU preference based on license availability. PALS automatically tracks allocations and monitors personal license limits so hunters are not issued more licenses than they are entitled to at any given point.
 

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Oh, so are saying that a process you could train a monkey to do is too complex for today's younger generation of hunters? I sure would hate to believe that to be true.

The fact is you and all other hunters who apply are getting your antlerless license with virtually no problems arising from the current process. The current system simply isn't broke. It isn't even tilting.

Dick Bodenhorn
I didn't say it's complicated I said it is cumbersome and the steps I outlined that need to be taken lay that fact out. C-U-M-B-E-R-S-O-M-E.

That you think the solution is telling hunters they just need to figure out what CTs are better than the others at it. Or understand how the process REALLY works is disingenuous.

It's kinda funny you are suddenly defending hunters comprehension abilities when numerous times you tell hunters here that they don't understand conservation, game management, etc anytime they don't agree with you.
 

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PALS system has crashed numerous times.
 
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Most everyone I know files ONLINE without a problem (because it's easier and more efficient) but somehow it would a disaster to have the doe tag system go this route? LOL
The end result is the same. So what is the difference?

Good luck, Tony
 

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Not if you include the 850,000+ applicants who had the same experience as RSB this year. And the tens of millions of applicants from previous years.

Good luck, Tony
His experience is culled from knowing where to send the application, so yes, his sample is still statistically insignificant.
Besides that, do you know the exact failure rate, i.e how many did not get their tags? How many applications are lost and how many of those do the hunters say the heck with it, $6.90 isn't worth the trouble to deal with an affidavit and more snail mail follies. BTDT. The system isn't a failure, it's an anachronism. Put EVERYTHING online an do away with the 1950's system. Then again, will the PGC wait until license sales are below 200,000 before they do something? Probably.
 

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His experience is culled from knowing where to send the application, so yes, his sample is still statistically insignificant.
Besides that, do you know the exact failure rate, i.e how many did not get their tags? How many applications are lost and how many of those do the hunters say the heck with it, $6.90 isn't worth the trouble to deal with an affidavit and more snail mail follies. BTDT. The system isn't a failure, it's an anachronism. Put EVERYTHING online an do away with the 1950's system. Then again, will the PGC wait until license sales are below 200,000 before they do something? Probably.
This year I had a 100% success rate for getting 3 applications processed through Carbon County. Last year at the same CT my success rate was only 66.6%. Is Carbon County Treasurer good or bad at processing applications, or was my success/failure because of the number of bonus tags available?

I have asked the same question about the failure/error rate, and never received a answer. I would have figured the people claiming that the process is broken would have some factual figures to support their claims. Its hard for me to support a change when the people calling for the change cant even give accurate error figures.

Seems more like some people want the change simply for PERSONAL reasons. Then use inaccurate claims of unfair, complicated, high error rates, ect. to try and sell their opinions.

I am all for changing the process if it means improved resource management, higher profit, and/or improved error rate for the PGC. Otherwise; If it is not broke, dont (Try) fix it.

Changing the process just so I can apply online vs through the mail. Changing the process just so some online vendor process my app. vs a CT. Changing the process just so a computer randomly picks my application vs it randomly being picked by the CT. Changing the process just so I can use a credit/debit card vs using a check. Those are all trivial (non)issues that I see no need to change for.

Good luck, Tony
 

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This year I had a 100% success rate for getting 3 applications processed through Carbon County. Last year at the same CT my success rate was only 66.6%. Is Carbon County Treasurer good or bad at processing applications, or was my success/failure because of the number of bonus tags available?

I have asked the same question about the failure/error rate, and never received a answer. I would have figured the people claiming that the process is broken would have some factual figures to support their claims. Its hard for me to support a change when the people calling for the change cant even give accurate error figures.

Seems more like some people want the change simply for PERSONAL reasons. Then use inaccurate claims of unfair, complicated, high error rates, ect. to try and sell their opinions.

I am all for changing the process if it means improved resource management, higher profit, and/or improved error rate for the PGC. Otherwise; If it is not broke, dont (Try) fix it.

Changing the process just so I can apply online vs through the mail. Changing the process just so some online vendor process my app. vs a CT. Changing the process just so a computer randomly picks my application vs it randomly being picked by the CT. Changing the process just so I can use a credit/debit card vs using a check. Those are all trivial (non)issues that I see no need to change for.

Good luck, Tony
The PGC themselves are on record stating an online application system and issuance of tags would save them money.

Folks citing system failures aren't calling not getting a tag because your app was #8001 in a WMU allocated 8000 tags.
They are defining "failures" as occurrences of apps never arriving, apps being issued tags for a WMU not listed on the preferences line, apps lost in the mail, apps misplaced in a CT off and not attempted to be processed until well into or after the non-resident round, issued tags being stuck in a 3rd party's return envelope, issued tags never arriving.
You and RSB are asserting that the current system success rate is 99.999% because your combined experience is 1 "failure" in 60 years plus your years of applying.
That doesn't extrapolate to the entire application pool, and we have plenty of testimony here to others experiencing "failures" of multiple types.

Are the reasons "Personal?" Of course they are. Some folks had "bad" experiences and had their eyes opened to the possibility of a better way of handling the process. That's kinda how innovation works. No one just woke up one day and said "You know, I've never seen an ocean or been on a boat, but I think I'll invent a steam ship."

Additionally, I don't think anyone suggesting the process changes has definitively claimed a "high error rate"... rather that logically, eliminating as much human intervention in the process as possible can only reduce the current error rate. Doesn't really matter if the error rate is 1%, 0.1%, 5%, 0.5% or 0.05%. If a new process could both reduce the error rate AND save and/or increase the PGC funds resulting from Antlerless Tag sales, it's a no-brainer. It'll happen. It should happen.

You keep stating that an online process would be "random selection", just as the current CT system "randomly" picks apps out of a stack. Neither is accurate. You could argue the order in the stack CTs work thru is randomized by the post office...

But I do see your point that to you, the issues others have experienced a "trivial". Your tune would change if you experienced them firsthand.
My view is that every year the system isn't modernized is lost revenue, lost opportunity use that revenue for enhancing management effort, and bad PR.
 

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This year I had a 100% success rate for getting 3 applications processed through Carbon County. Last year at the same CT my success rate was only 66.6%. Is Carbon County Treasurer good or bad at processing applications, or was my success/failure because of the number of bonus tags available?

I have asked the same question about the failure/error rate, and never received a answer. I would have figured the people claiming that the process is broken would have some factual figures to support their claims. Its hard for me to support a change when the people calling for the change cant even give accurate error figures.

Seems more like some people want the change simply for PERSONAL reasons. Then use inaccurate claims of unfair, complicated, high error rates, ect. to try and sell their opinions.

I am all for changing the process if it means improved resource management, higher profit, and/or improved error rate for the PGC. Otherwise; If it is not broke, dont (Try) fix it.

Changing the process just so I can apply online vs through the mail. Changing the process just so some online vendor process my app. vs a CT. Changing the process just so a computer randomly picks my application vs it randomly being picked by the CT. Changing the process just so I can use a credit/debit card vs using a check. Those are all trivial (non)issues that I see no need to change for.

Good luck, Tony
Personal Reasons? Not from me, I’ll admit that I’ve never had a doe tag application rejected because I didn’t fill it out correctly. There’s been a few years where I wasn’t awarded my top choice for bonus tags, but as long as I can remember, I’ve always been awarded my top choice in the first round.

That being said, even though I’ve not had any negative experiences with the current doe tag application process,I still possess enough common sense to know a silly, complicated and convoluted process when I see one.

Honestly just take a step back and look at the process from and outsiders perspective. I’ve been filling these things out since I was twelve and if I had never applied for tags in any other state, I might have thought what we had worked ok. But every year I’ll sit down at the kitchen table, get out my license and look at the checklist on the back of the pink envelopes as though I’m in the cockpit of a 747 on the tarmac at JFK. Here is a brief description of the doe tag application process.


I begin by filling out my application on the provided doe tag application form found on the top of the license printed on the yellow material, I hesitate to call this paper, because you can actually write on paper. Then using a pen the I set aside only for this purpose because it possess some type of magical power to write on the rubberized material that was recycled into my license.

Slowly and deliberately writing in block letters as not to confusing anyone working at the county treasurers office of my choice, I complete my application with no smearing. While I’m at it, I should just fill out the application for the second round, since I mainly hunt in one or two WMUs my choices are the same in all rounds. What’s that you say? The hunting license only comes with one application for three rounds of tags, how convenient.

Not to fear though, as I produce my scissors and cut out my second application from the digest. Phew that was close I think to myself, but what about the third round?What’s that? I need to photocopy this form and send it in for the 3rd round. How is anyone ever going to manage that? I’ve been told that doing this application online would be to difficult for many of those who reject technology, how can we possibly expect them to use a scanner or copy machine?

Now it’s on the the payment, as I move down my pre flight checklist. I have to find my checkbook, since no one really seems to write checks anymore. Once that is located I can begin. Slowly and diligently I fill out the check in block letters as to not cause any confusion on the desire and intention of this check. Like some 75 year old woman holding up the line at the grocery store, I guide the pen along its course and fill out a check for 6 dollars and 90 cents. At this rate I’ve got enough check to get doe tags for the next 150 years. Now making sure that I did not specify Potter county treasurer on the check, rather leaving a much more generic, county treasurer filled into the pay to section of the check. I’ve been told that county treasurers are quite shy and bashful and addressing a check to them with their county's name on it will cause them to scatter and hide around the office.

Next it’s on to my favorite part, then envelope. Once again writing in nice block letters as not to confuse the postal carrier this time I complete the envelope and attach the two stamps. I’m sure glad that I was given two super special pink envelopes when I purchased my license, so before the third round I’ll have to make a special trip and get a third envelope from somewhere. Them taking my check and my application as though I’m preparing a heart for delivery to a far off operating theater I insert both into the crudely designed envelope. Rumor has it that it was designed by a dropout from Japan’s most prestigious school of origami.

Sealing the envelope can be quite a chore, the older style envelopes had a very weak adhesive that when licked tasted of old feet and black licorice. More importantly it lacked the ability to stick to anything. So just to be sure my precious cargo can arrive at its destination, I apply a few small pieces of scotch tape to the envelope to insure a safe delivery. I don’t want to over do it though, as I am unaware of the strength of the average county treasurer. One would think that someone who got to work with treasure all day would be quite strong. Whomever these treasurer folks are, they sure are specific about how they want this thing filled out.

So I review my checklist once again, it looks like we’re all good to go, and I’ll stick it in my mailbox, where my pink envelope of great importance can be handled by yet another highly competent government agency, the postal service. I’m sure glad that this envelope will blend right in with the other mail and not become a target for someone looking for a document that contains my name, address and back routing and account numbers


See how easy that was boys and girls, now remember, there cannot possibly be a better way to this.

The End
 

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If you are on this site once a week in June & July, and you don’t know the best 2 -3 treasures, then you are totally incompetent!!!
 

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If you are on this site once a week in June & July, and you don’t know the best 2 -3 treasures, then you are totally incompetent!!!

There is the problem. If The county treasurers are going to continue to process applications, then there should strict guidelines as to how many applications are handled each day, so one or two treasurers don’t provide an advantage.

In the meantime, I’ll tell everyone I know to send to Elk county and see if we can’t slow them down a bit.
 

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Wingatchtochwilist and SuperX2Nut,

You guys dont have to keep trying to sell me on how bad the current process is and how great a different process will be. Over the years I have read enough complaints about other states process and enough imaginary process to understand that every process has its advantages and disadvantages. My personal opinion is that the current process works fine, and have a hard time believing that any other process will be a improvement in ALL and/or ENOUGH areas to justify a change. Given the fact that the PGC has presented other process options and we are still using the current one, solidifies my opinion that no process has met all the criteria needed to justify a change.

Good luck, Tony
 

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There’s one key reason we’re still using the current system. Implementation of what the PGC has proposed requires legislation removing the CT monopoly on issuing the tags.
 

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My goodness, buy your license, skim the book over, then apply for Doe Tags. How friggen hard is that? Just curious, cause I’ve been Legally hunting for 43 years and always got my DOE tags.
I agree.

I have about 10 minutes of time used for the three antlerless licenses I applied for this year. Fill out the app/envelope/check, mail it, then retrieve it from the mailbox.

Good luck, Tony
 
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