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Discussion Starter #1
I took my CVA to the range today to get it fine tuned at 100 yards. After turning my shoulder to what felt like mush I gave up,, but here's the thing. Last time I was at the range it was shooting 1 to 1.5 inch groups today it was all over the place. Same powder sabot and bullet combo. So I switched to a lighter bullet and it seemed to shoot some better but I could not get near the bulls eye. I tried to shoot and clean after every shot, tried to shoot 2 to 3 shots and clean, tried different powder charges (80 to 110 grs. Triple 7 - 2 and 3 f ). Finally gave up with a sore shoulder. Got home and took everything apart to clean it real good and noticed that the front screw on the fore arm stock was loose other than that everything was tight. Would that fore arm screw cause them shots to go all over? Is there some special torque setting for that screw?
 

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the barrel was probably wiggling all over the place with that lose screw. use some loc tite and go back to the range. you can also use a limbsaver strap on shoulder pad to help reduce recoil. i can shoot a whole box of rifle slugs out of a pump gun with that thing and never have a bruise.


it goes on your shoulder, not the gun.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
the barrel was probably wiggling all over the place with that lose screw. use some loc tite and go back to the range. you can also use a limbsaver strap on shoulder pad to help reduce recoil. i can shoot a whole box of rifle slugs out of a pump gun with that thing and never have a bruise.


it goes on your shoulder, not the gun.
Thanks. Is there a torque setting for the screw? I've been looking around and can't find one.
 

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It's soft steel and it's drawing against polymer, don't overtighten it... finger tight is plenty. If the screw is etching or deforming the forearm, it's too tight.

But that's unlikely to be the problem.
I'm assuming you have a scope on it..
Most likely culprit (especially if said scope was factory mounted) is the base(s) aren't tight.
Next, I'd suspect the rings..

If everything is tight, I'd question the age of your powder. Triple7 is way more hygroscopic than black powder, and I've seen plenty of groups widen (and fizzles) from aged pyrodex and 777.

It's also possible something worked loose in the scope (especially if it's the Konus usually included in their package deals... usually they're good to go, but they do have a higher failure rate than most of the major brands)
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks fellas, the Triple 7/2F is about 1 year old and that shot the worst, the 3 f / T7 is probably about 3 maybe 4 years old and that shot best, it's like wth. everything was tight, scope rings and base evenly torqued to 20 inch lbs.. The scope is a Nikon 2x7 but that doesn't mean it couldn't be the scope. The breech plug was pretty fouled when I took it apart to do a good cleaning. One thing I noticed too was after I shot the first round out of a completely clean barrel the second and third round would not seat the same no matter how much pressure I put on on the ram rod. So that could be a problem too and I bought a special breech plug just for loose powder. So this is where I'm at, try a different scope, put the breech plug for black powder pellets back in and try some pellets or just try some loose 2 f Goex BP. Also I torqued that forearm screw to 20 inch lbs. which seem to be okay. What do ya think?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Update,, I got some Triple 7 50/50 pellets and put a good Bushnell 3x9x40 scope I had on the CVA and bore sighted, double checked all screws everything was good to go. Went to the 50 yard range and first two shots high and right at 2 o clock and about 1 inch apart cleaned the bore and next shot went low at 7 o clock so okay maybe I pulled that one. Shot another and it went high 10 o clock. Cleaned the rifle and took it to my local gun dealer that I bought it from told him what was going on, he offered to send it back but I traded for a T/C Impact SB even up. Done with the CVA.
 

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Thanks fellas, the Triple 7/2F is about 1 year old and that shot the worst, the 3 f / T7 is probably about 3 maybe 4 years old and that shot best, it's like wth. everything was tight, scope rings and base evenly torqued to 20 inch lbs.. The scope is a Nikon 2x7 but that doesn't mean it couldn't be the scope. The breech plug was pretty fouled when I took it apart to do a good cleaning. One thing I noticed too was after I shot the first round out of a completely clean barrel the second and third round would not seat the same no matter how much pressure I put on on the ram rod. So that could be a problem too and I bought a special breech plug just for loose powder. So this is where I'm at, try a different scope, put the breech plug for black powder pellets back in and try some pellets or just try some loose 2 f Goex BP. Also I torqued that forearm screw to 20 inch lbs. which seem to be okay. What do ya think?
Underlined above:
Sounds like you were experiencing the infamous 777 "Crud Ring"...
I've found this is usually caused or made worse by certain primers... curious what you were using.. (I've found the Remington "Kleenbore" and CCI Magnum primers minimize the ring)
Inconsistent seating could definitely cause issues grouping...

I see it's moot now with the CVA, but if you start to experience similar issues with the T/C, try different primers.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Underlined above:
Sounds like you were experiencing the infamous 777 "Crud Ring"...
I've found this is usually caused or made worse by certain primers... curious what you were using.. (I've found the Remington "Kleenbore" and CCI Magnum primers minimize the ring)
Inconsistent seating could definitely cause issues grouping...

I see it's moot now with the CVA, but if you start to experience similar issues with the T/C, try different primers.
I was using Federal 209A mag. primers. Yep, I'll have to watch for that crud ring in the T/C.
 

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Owned 3 CVAs over the years(Hunter/Firebolt and 1 OptimaPro) all with their 1-28 Begara barrel. My best loads were shooting the 348 grain Poerbelt Aerotips push by 2 777 Mag pellets(120 gr) or 100 grain BH209. I favored BH209 due to not having a crud ring plus easier clean-up. Also, found longer bullets such as the 348 stabilized best out of that barrel. All CVA's were extremely accurate once tuned in.

See you ended up with a TC...so did I a TC ProHunter(Encore) owning it now for past 10 years. In my TC I found !00-110 grains of BH209 with the Barnes blue saboted 290 Grain SPIT-FIRE TMZ to be a tack driving load. Best of luck with tour TC!!
 

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Waynzee...I forgot to mention I experienced 777 to rapidly loose it's potency if stored past one year even in a ideal cool dry environment. Another factor that may have played a part in your experience. Another reason I went to BH209 in addition to the crud ring factor..
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Waynzee...I forgot to mention I experienced 777 to rapidly loose it's potency if stored past one year even in a ideal cool dry environment. Another factor that may have played a part in your experience. Another reason I went to BH209 in addition to the crud ring factor..
I was thinking about BH 209, Are there any negatives? It seems all the reviews are pretty good.
 

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Waynzee...I forgot to mention I experienced 777 to rapidly loose it's potency if stored past one year even in a ideal cool dry environment. Another factor that may have played a part in your experience. Another reason I went to BH209 in addition to the crud ring factor..
I was thinking about BH 209, Are there any negatives? It seems all the reviews are pretty good.
I've been exclusively shooting BH209 for at least 5 years now & found no negatives. I cannot say that about other substitutes that I used in the past. It isn't cheap is the only negative but IMO the BH209 benefits far outweigh the cost factor considering what we invest in hunts, guns, time spent etc. Below is a useful comparison chart put out by BH209 a few years ago. Their www(below) is also chocked full of great info.



https://www.blackhorn209.com/
 

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what about Pyrodex pellets ?
 

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what about Pyrodex pellets ?
Not a pyrodex fan based on loose Pyrodex experience due to dirty/corrosive sulfur residue & didn't like it's bulky granulation coupled with limited shelf life so never tried their pellets. Read of a problem with pyrodex pellets ignited by a 209 primer is that flyers can be caused by the excessive brisance of the shotgun primer driving the projectile forward in the barrel before the ignition of the powder charge. Also read of crushing problems. I did shoot the 777 magnum(60 grains) pellets for a while and they were ok but still left the crud ring.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Best of luck Waynzee!! Be sure to report back on how you like BH209.
Well BH 209 powder is rarer than hens teeth around here, I found a 10oz. container at Gander Outdoors and they wanted $46.00 for it so I passed on it, seems to high for 10oz. of powder.
I've been doing some research and it appears that if you use non magnum 209 primers (I guess Winchester is best) with T7 powder you won't get a crud ring as quick and some say non at all. Also if you clean between shots with 90% alcohol patches it will keep the barrel clean and keep the crud ring from building up.
So I've got 2 containers of T7 to use up and I'll try that first and see what happens.
 

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Waynzee, I'm in the same boat regarding a switch to Blackhorn...
I have a few boxes of 777 pellets on hand (all vacuum sealed, seems to keep rather well that way).
And yes, once you find the right primers, the crud ring issue all but goes away.
I keep telling myself I'll switch to BH once my stockpile is used up, but I'm not sure the math is there...
I'm not totally sold on the benefits of BH outweighing the cost, not just monetary, but in slower loading, more measures, tubes, etc to buy and carry in the field.

I can get off 3 shots with harvester sabot/300gr XTP without having accuracy suffer or difficulty loading... after 3, a spit patch is a must.
Swabbing between ever 2nd or 3rd shot never bothered me. When I'm at the range, I like to replicate field conditions, not race through powder.

As for cleaning, sure, BH is king, but I can't complain about the routine for 777.
I use the CVA Barrel Blaster foam. Drop QRBP and small parts into parts cleaner, squirt the bore with foam, let both sit for a beer or two, then swab out. Dry patch, rust inhibitor patch, wipe down, done.
My Optima V2 has seen several hunts and about two hundred rounds at the range, bore looks NIB.
 
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