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It's open season on gun carriers.

A case out of the First Circuit has some painful lessons for gun carriers in Georgia. A United States Circuit Court of Appeals last week upheld the constitutionality of pointing a gun at any citizen daring to carry, lawfully, a concealed weapon in public.

The First Circuit Court of Appeals is the Court just below the United States Supreme Court in the New England states. The case stems from a lawyer who sued a police officer after he was detained for lawfully carrying a concealed weapon while in possession of a license to carry concealed. According to the case opinion, the lawyer, Greg Schubert, had a pistol concealed under his suit coat, and Mr. Schubert was walking in what the court described as a "high crime area." At some point a police officer, J.B. Stern, who lived up to his last name, caught a glimpse of the attorney's pistol, and he leapt out of his patrol car "in a dynamic and explosive manner" with his gun drawn, pointing it at the attorney's face.

Officer Stern "executed a pat-frisk," and Mr. Schubert produced his license to carry a concealed weapon. He was disarmed and ordered to stand in front of the patrol car in the hot sun. At some point, the officer locked him in the back seat of the police car and delivered a lecture. Officer Stern "partially Mirandized Schubert, mentioned the possibility of a criminal charge, and told Schubert that he (Stern) was the only person allowed to carry a weapon on his beat."

For most people, this would be enough to conclude that they were being harassed for the exercise of a constitutional right, but the officer went further, seizing the attorney's pistol and leaving with it. Officer Stern reasoned that because he could not confirm the "facially valid" license to carry, he would not permit the attorney to carry. Officer Stern drove away with the license and the firearm, leaving the attorney unarmed, dressed in a suit, and alone in what the officer himself argued was a high crime area.

The attorney sued in federal court, but the District Court threw out his suit, ruling that Officer Stern's behavior is the proper way to treat people who lawfully carry concealed pistols. Mr. Schubert appealed, and the First Circuit upheld the District Court's ruling. The court held that the stop was lawful and that Officer Stern "was permitted to take actions to ensure his own safety."

The court further held that the officer was entitled to confirm the validity of a "facially valid" license to carry a concealed weapon. The problem for Officer Stern was that there is no way to do so in Massachusetts, where this incident occurred. As a result, the court held that Officer Stern "sensibly opted to terminate the stop and release Schubert, but retain the weapon."

Georgia is not in the First Circuit, but this case holds some harsh lessons for Georgians who exercise their right to bear arms. Recall that in the MARTA case here in Georgia, the court held that the officer was entitled to take measures to protect himself, including disarming the person carrying, and entitled to investigate further for a half hour even after Mr. Raissi produced a Georgia firearms license. Although the officers in that case did not actually point a gun at Mr. Raissi's face, as Officer Stern did to attorney Schubert, it is a logical conclusion that the court would have upheld the constitutionality of them doing so. The vast majority of the cases MARTA cited in its briefs to the federal court included an officer pointing a gun at the person stopped. In addition, carrying a concealed weapon onto the MARTA system is a felony, and no court is going to hold that an officer violated any constitutional right by pointing a gun at an armed felon.

Furthermore, it must be recalled that Georgia, like Massachussetts and the vast majority of states, has no system to confirm the validity of a Georgia firearms license. The similarities between the MARTA federal opinion and the First Circuit opinion are startling, and the implications for Georgia are clear.

This First Circuit case is a logical extension of the MARTA case here in Georgia, and it shows what armed Georgians can expect if the General Assembly does not take action soon to correct the presumption of criminality that federal judge Thomas Thrash attached to the exercise of the right to bear arms.

Welcome to the new "right" to bear arms.

Concealed permit doenst mean jack
 

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I believe C. Heaston said it the best, "You can pry it from my cold, dead hand."
 

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Just an unfortunate situation ..makes me mad but this is the society that we live in today only we can change it and if we dont do something soon our future generations will have nothing. I have some friends that are cops and most were cocky in the beginning. 1 got his clocked checked and that calmed him down...found out he was not a super hero. He found out that he liked coming home to his family and it is just a job like u and i have.
 

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Not to bunch anyones shorts but. It is a concealed carry permit. The trick is concealed, not hanging out of your suitcoat. Not hanging out of your jeans at a game. Mr Stern has awful good eyes to spot it out of a patrol car. The trick word again is CONCEALED. So keep it concealed.
 

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Retired Donkey said:
Not to bunch anyones shorts but. It is a concealed carry permit. The trick is concealed, not hanging out of your suitcoat. Not hanging out of your jeans at a game. Mr Stern has awful good eyes to spot it out of a patrol car. The trick word again is CONCEALED. So keep it concealed.
Where on the permit does it say concealed?
 

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lunchbox said:
Retired Donkey said:
Not to bunch anyones shorts but. It is a concealed carry permit. The trick is concealed, not hanging out of your suitcoat. Not hanging out of your jeans at a game. Mr Stern has awful good eyes to spot it out of a patrol car. The trick word again is CONCEALED. So keep it concealed.
Where on the permit does it say concealed?
my thoughts exactly....if i have a permit(which i do) i dont have to CONCEAL anything.
 

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Retired Donkey said:
Not to bunch anyones shorts but. It is a concealed carry permit. The trick is concealed, not hanging out of your suitcoat. Not hanging out of your jeans at a game. Mr Stern has awful good eyes to spot it out of a patrol car. The trick word again is CONCEALED. So keep it concealed.
I dont have a concealed carry permit....I have a license to carry firearms. This enables me to carry my handgun any way I see fit within the bounds of the law.
 

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Open carry is legal in Pennsylvania without a License To Carry Firearms except in "cities of the first class" (Philadelphia) and vehicles where a License To Carry Firearms is required to do so.
 

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Retired Donkey said:
Not to bunch anyones shorts but. It is a concealed carry permit. The trick is concealed, not hanging out of your suitcoat. Not hanging out of your jeans at a game. Mr Stern has awful good eyes to spot it out of a patrol car. The trick word again is CONCEALED. So keep it concealed.
No where on the license does it say "concealed".

And if you read the statute PACS 6106, it says "allows the person to carry concealed..............."

Allows........not requires concealed carry.
 

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Does anyone know the requirements in the state where it ocurred? It may be different there.
 

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think of how many thugs with saggy pants acting like fools could have been stopped in the time this professional, employed, well educated gentleman was being harrassed......unreal
 

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Retired Donkey said:
Not to bunch anyones shorts but. It is a concealed carry permit. The trick is concealed, not hanging out of your suitcoat. Not hanging out of your jeans at a game. Mr Stern has awful good eyes to spot it out of a patrol car. The trick word again is CONCEALED. So keep it concealed.
We must have different permits, for mine is a permit to...

"Carry a firearm on or about my person or vehicle for purposes of defense of self or property"

Don't know what yours is.
 

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wytetail said:
We must have different permits, for mine is a permit to...

"Carry a firearm on or about my person or vehicle for purposes of defense of self or property"

Don't know what yours is.
At this point of my life, I'll let the police defend my property.

I carry concealed only to protect myself and my family & friends from the criminal element.
 

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took this from the above link:

(Concealed carry is an option but is NOT required to carry a firearm. Firearms can be openly carried. However if you are concealing, the firearm MUST be carried in a holster, clip or similar type of securing device)
 

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Georgia law does not apply nor does PA and what is written on a PA license.


This attorney was stopped outside a count house in Massachusetts not Georgia.


Did the cop over react? Maybe but we are talking about the Peoples Republic of Massachusetts which is a may issue state. This guy is probably one of a handful that even has a permit to carry there.


WV Gino
 

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In Pennsylvania, the attorney would be getting a large chunk of this former cop's pension, and rightly so.
 

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Pa-Plinker said:
wytetail said:
We must have different permits, for mine is a permit to...

"Carry a firearm on or about my person or vehicle for purposes of defense of self or property"

Don't know what yours is.
At this point of my life, I'll let the police defend my property.

I carry concealed only to protect myself and my family & friends from the criminal element.
Certainly your prerogative and I'll not judge. If you are car-jacked and can give up the vehicle and avoid a confrontation, that's your decision.

I won't be giving up the vehicle, that's my prerogative.
 

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I got a picture carry license. Years ago, in Florida there was a list of things to do when confronted by a police officer while lawfully carrying. The first was, if the police officer didn't already know it, inform the officer in a non-confrontational manner that you have a license to carry and have a weapon on your person. Let the officer tell you what to do next in that regard.

Many years ago, in DC, where simultaneously they have 6 different police forces, I witnessed a confrontation between two plain clothes officers from different police forces. It nearly got very ugly. I and two other witnesses ended up being interrogated by two different internal affairs offices. Neither police officer would believe that the other was a cop. and they kept screaming at each other to drop it. (One of the bystanders yelled at them, that which ever might not be a cop would have shot already) By the time the two cops had it straightened out, there must have been dozens of calls to 911 about it. Happened in front of the train station.

this courts of this country are giving cops a nearly neurotic benefit of the doubt in their actions, for any and every possible reason. Such treatment was once reserved for coddling paranoids in mental institutions.


There is a most important flaw in the courts reasoning. Lack of common sense. How realistic was the officers claim to verify the license. It sounds remotely like the same excuse given by police when they arrested the black professor in Cambridge MAss. They didn't belive his id and needed to verify it. It was a frickin Mass phot ID. Since when does a cop get to violate your rights because they want to double check an id they have no reason to doubt otherwise. The old ben franklin maxim comes to mind about those who would sacrifice freedom for security......
 

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>It sounds remotely like the same excuse given by police when they arrested the black professor in Cambridge MAss. They didn't belive his id and needed to verify it.

Garbage. The professor was arrested for disorderly conduct not lack of ID. He went nuts over being asked to produce ID when the police responded to a call of a home break in.


WV Gino
 
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