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Good post and one of the most compelling arguments I have herd relative to the so called climate change. I bookmarked this and intend to send it to some folks I know who wear aluminum foil hats and make sacrifices to Al Gore.
 

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Ask all the climate change alarmist to show where the man made climate change i.e. Global warming was proven in a lab by scientists.
 

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I never believed that the climate changes were man made.
I feel the warming is all part of the normal progression on the planet and people in Philadelphia are not going to wake up one morning and find Camden slid beneath the waves and they now have beachfront property.
Look back on the records from the past 100 years and they do not show much of an average change at all.
Water and air quality are better then anytime in our lives.
Many products that were suspected of being bad for the ozone, like R-12 and R-22 freon, leaded gas and coal are almost eliminated.
None of us will live long enough to see any significant changes and I doubt our grandchildren s, grandchildren s grandchildren will ever see snow-less deer seasons and white Christmases will be more then just a song.

There will always be chicken-little type groups saying we are doomed and we are ruining the earth.
Hot air coming from our politicians, the heat rising from racial tension and terror groups trying to get their hands on nuclear materials are going to destroy earth as we know it long before what is part of a natural process will.
 

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Birch812 said:
Hot air coming from our politicians, the heat rising from racial tension and terror groups trying to get their hands on nuclear materials are going to destroy earth as we know it long before what is part of a natural process will.
Nuff said!
 

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Well the video is well done and it could be argued fairly factual, but factual and truthful are not the same. No question climate change has and is always occurring, but the speed with which it is now almost certainly occurring is certainly unusual short of asteroid strikes and the like. The hypothesis for human caused warming as a result of greenhouse gases has been around since the late 1890s. Nearly every scientific examination has found it to be true. Do folks really believe there is an evil cabal of scientists colluding to defraud the entire world? We can all find what we want to support what we want to believe, true or not. I would hope we would be better than that.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
What was the flavor of the Kool-Aid that you drank?
TrailMan said:
Well the video is well done and it could be argued fairly factual, but factual and truthful are not the same. No question climate change has and is always occurring, but the speed with which it is now almost certainly occurring is certainly unusual short of asteroid strikes and the like. The hypothesis for human caused warming as a result of greenhouse gases has been around since the late 1890s. Nearly every scientific examination has found it to be true. Do folks really believe there is an evil cabal of scientists colluding to defraud the entire world? We can all find what we want to support what we want to believe, true or not. I would hope we would be better than that.
 

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TrailMan said:
Well the video is well done and it could be argued fairly factual, but factual and truthful are not the same. No question climate change has and is always occurring, but the speed with which it is now almost certainly occurring is certainly unusual short of asteroid strikes and the like. The hypothesis for human caused warming as a result of greenhouse gases has been around since the late 1890s. Nearly every scientific examination has found it to be true. Do folks really believe there is an evil cabal of scientists colluding to defraud the entire world? We can all find what we want to support what we want to believe, true or not. I would hope we would be better than that.
This
 

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TrailMan said:
Well the video is well done and it could be argued fairly factual, but factual and truthful are not the same. No question climate change has and is always occurring, but the speed with which it is now almost certainly occurring is certainly unusual short of asteroid strikes and the like. The hypothesis for human caused warming as a result of greenhouse gases has been around since the late 1890s. Nearly every scientific examination has found it to be true. Do folks really believe there is an evil cabal of scientists colluding to defraud the entire world? We can all find what we want to support what we want to believe, true or not. I would hope we would be better than that.
Given that a women in charge of IPCC, I believe it was in 2008, said that the Climate Change agenda that the UN is pushing is more about lifestyle change and economic equality than anything to do with environment, yes I do believe that people are having wool pulled over their eyes.

If climate change is scary and dangerous, why is it that the people pushing this fiction say we need to help vulnerable (ie poor) countries first and then do what they deem necessary in the first world countries? Why wouldn't we want to what is needed in our country first people helping anyone else out?

Why is Al Gore pushing a climate change agenda? Why did so many things in his propaganda piece never happen? Does he really believe in Climate Change or his he trying to get a return on his investment when he invested money in the Chicago Climate Exchange which was supposed to a place to trade carbon credits for a cap and trade plan? Given his $3000 per month electric bill, I'm guessing he doesn't care about conservation, the planet, or greenhouse gasses.

Let's not forget Michael Mann's "hide the decline" email, when he figured out a way to model temperature data so that the fact it had been declining could be hidden.

But I'm sure it's all just a coincidence that so many dire predictions never came true. The first Earth Day in 1970, "scientists" were fear mongering about the coming ice age.

That didn't happen so it became global warming.

That didn't happen either so now it's climate change and any adverse weather event can be attributed to it.

But I'm sure it's real. These things are just coincidences.
 

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I guess you are trying to confirm the point I made about confirmation bias. However, The charge against Mann has been thoroughly reviewed, including by Penn State, and refuted. It was a serious allegation to the man's reputation as a scientist and a person.
 

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TrailMan said:
I guess you are trying to confirm the point I made about confirmation bias. However, The charge against Mann has been thoroughly reviewed, including by Penn State, and refuted. It was a serious allegation to the man's reputation as a scientist and a person.
http://junkscience.com/michael-mann-defamed-or-defined-by-hide-the-decline/

Here's another analysis of his antics with citations. It's a bit more in depth than the link you posted.

We have pretty good recorded weather data from 1880 on the United States. That's just under 140 years of weather data, and it might be generous to say that it's good data.

Based on the age of North America, I would call that time period statistically insignificant to trend any weather patterns and call them abnormal.

Even if you begin from when the Great Lakes were thought to have formed 10,000 years ago, we have just over 1% of the time covered with weather data. That's not nearly enough data to determine what's happening today didn't happen hundreds or thousands of years ago.
 

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OK TPR25, I'm not going to convince you. You have made up your mind.
So, let's consider that you are correct and climate change is a big fraud or at best, nothing unusual at all, but that we take steps as if it were real. We spend a lot of money creating economic and personal hardships for a lot of folks.
But, let's just suppose it is happening and we do nothing; the cost will be astronomically higher at every level.
So what is the smarter course of action?
 

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Climate_Fund

money dumps...it is what this is all about. A lot of "green" in someone's hands....

<span style="font-style: italic">As per its own press release, the fund paints a rosy picture about its goals:

The Green Climate Fund was established by 194 governments to serve as the central global investment vehicle for climate finance, uniquely bringing together public and private investments to help advance the global paradigm shift towards low‐emission and climate resilient growth in developing countries
</span>

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2...ower-generation
 

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TrailMan said:
OK TPR25, I'm not going to convince you. You have made up your mind.
So, let's consider that you are correct and climate change is a big fraud or at best, nothing unusual at all, but that we take steps as if it were real. We spend a lot of money creating economic and personal hardships for a lot of folks.
But, let's just suppose it is happening and we do nothing; the cost will be astronomically higher at every level.
So what is the smarter course of action?
I love this argument because it shows just how religion-like the cult of climate change has become. This parallels Pascal's Wager, which essentially states wouldn't it be better to believe in God rather than not believing and taking a chance at eternal punishment when you die.

But I'll play along.

So what are we going to do?

Solar panels every where? Eagle chopping wind turbines every where? Are the environmentalists going to allow us mine for the rare earth minerals needed for solar panels?

Is the whole world doing playing along, or only the gullible Western nations committing economic Seppuku? I would think if the whole world isn't playing along, and climate change is real GLOBALLY, then it wouldn't matter if we only a few nations self-sacrificed themselves to the Climate Change gods as long as China and India are polluting. I guess I need a few more parameters for your scenario.

I appreciate your concern but I don't need convincing of something that logically doesn't make sense. I might listen to the alarmists if they didn't attribute every adverse weather event to Climate Change.

I also might listen if the people pushing it had a higher moral character. These same leftist politicians who said Obamacare would save families $2500, if you like your plan you can keep your plan, and if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor (Hint: all lies) weren't pushing climate change as well.

The "settled science" term is nauseating as well. It reeks of suppressing other view points.

John Kerry called climate change the biggest threat on the planet. The same John Kerry also told graduates over the weekend to prepare for a Borderless world. Sounds like he has an agenda.

Here's a fun article from 1975 warning of a coming ice age:
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1975/06/02/page/76/article/the-armadillos-are-heading-south




Here's an article from the New York times talking about how there's no end in sight to the global cooling trend of the past 30 years: http://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1978/01/05/110749387.html?pageNumber=75 (subscription)


Here's an article from 1895 talking about how warming trends are caused by ocean currents.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/153476206

Here's an article from 1977 saying melting polar ice will raise sea levels 20 feet.

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1977/01/09/page/1/article/flood-threat-from-polar-ice

Pretty sure that didn't happen.

I visited Glacier National Park in 2008 and 2009. The big alarmist trend then was "No more glaicers by 2020!"

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/03/090302-glaciers-melting.html

Now it's been bumped back to 2050.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/23/us/cli...-park.html?_r=2

But in 1923, the scientists said the glaciers would be gone by 1950.



https://www.newspapers.com/image/103670563/?terms=glaciers+melting

The great lakes were predicted to lose several feet of water due to increased evaporation starting in the 1980s.

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1988/09/29/page/14/article/great-lakes-weather-probed

That also didn't happen.


These professors/scientists that allegedly deserve our respect for their great research on the climate have been wrong time and time again on just about everything that they predicted. Their alarmism is nothing new.

Why on earth would they be right this time? However, you are welcome to believe people who have wrong so many times. I will not try to convince you otherwise anymore. You have made up your mind.
 

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TPR25, you have provided probably the best arguments against that I think I have ever seen on this subject. I am by no means a scholar on the subject, but have always held a couple of the same stances you mentioned, from what I've read along with just from a common sense standpoint. We have such an extremely small sample of documented weather, as compared to the actual estimated age of the earth, it is just a drop in the bucket.

But the kicker for me has always been pushing this as 'settled science'. I have never seen such a phrase been so used on any subject, and it does just reek of trying to convince/end any disagreements. That push, along with the tiny sample size, are enough for me to at the very least QUESTION the legitimacy of the 'man-made' part of the global warming - I mean climate change.

Great job on this, I have learned from it.

I read something recently that summed it up pretty well:

If it is truly 'settled science', then why do they keep changing the name every few years?
 

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Excellent debate and proof tpr . The whole climate change push is only an agenda for investors in renewable energy . Scientists since the beginning of time have been guilty of finding the exact results the FUNDING entity wants . As they say , Follow The Money . I'm all for renewable energy WHEN it's feasible to implement with ALL countries . I also believe men to be very arrogant to think they can control Mother Nature .
 
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