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Discussion Starter #1
The Carlisle Rifle Range is open with changes. They cut down the brush so that the entire range is open.

I was there the other day when the news crew showed up to check it out. Thats me in the video. They wanted to check it out since they caught the guy that did the murder.

According to the articles that I read it looks like the guy that did the murder is the one that also stole the guns from there. Hopefully the range will be alot safer.


http://www.abc27.com/global/category.asp...=&partnerclipid

There is a commercial at the beginning and then the news article.
 

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They need to clear the trees out to the road so the shooters can be seen from the road.It would make it more safe.Its unbelievable how someone can shoot someone 8-9 times just for a stupid gun.
 

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People have been murdered for less, and not out in the woods, on the streets of out towns and cities. Cutting down trees on the range may make some people feel better but it won't stop some dirt bag with mayhem on their mind.
 

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Haven't done so lately, but I was using that range since back in the 1970s. Probably wouldn't really make anything better to eliminate all of the surrounding woods out next to Rt. 944, because of the low volume of traffic?

Isolation is why they built it out there all by itself, so as to inconvenience the smallest number of neighbors.
 

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Having a perimeter lined with trees makes the range safer in the event of a stray bullet. Kind of like a natural safety net.
 

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I've often thought, as I walked 100 yds to change targets, what if some idiot runs in here and steals my rifle while I'm away from it. But I've never thought I might get shot.

I think I will start wearing my 45 acp on my side from now on when at the range. Can't trust anyone these days.
 

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If someone is out to commit mayhem, no matter where, in the middle of the city or in a rural area, they have the advantage because they know what they are going to do and the odds are against the selected victims. The best we can do is to be aware of our surroundings and not be unaware of what is happening around us. If we are going to be afraid of what might happen if we go somewhere the thugs and bottom feeders have already won.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I have been shooting at public ranges all my life and have never had a bad experience. I have met some really nice people out at the ranges. I admit I don't like going alone. I don't like walking down range if I am at a range alone. When I went to the Carlisle range I had my girlfriend with me and we both had 380's in holsters. In the interview you never see my gun in it's holster. (I did not take it off either)

I do think that range will be safer now. It is very open and with the publicity it got I think there are a lot of people driving in just to look at it.
But we all know there are "crazies" out there. Be safe....
 

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Just wondering. is it ok to have a loaded handgun while downrange at PGC range? Not picking, I was thinking of doing the same the next time I'm at the range, then got thinking about the legality of it. Keystonepaul
 

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I believe it violates SGL range rules. But, my right to protect myself by carrying a weapon I am licensed to carry concealed, may take precedent.

In my opinion and in light of known problems at several ranges, I believe they should amend their range rules to allow downrange carry with the LTCF.
 

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Keystonepaul said:
Just wondering. is it ok to have a loaded handgun while downrange at PGC range? Not picking, I was thinking of doing the same the next time I'm at the range, then got thinking about the legality of it. Keystonepaul
If you have a valid PA License to Carry Firearms, a loaded handgun forward of the firing line would be lawful. See Title 34, Section 2525 below:

Sec. 2525. Possession of firearm for protection of self or others.

(a) General rule.- It is lawful for a law enforcement officer or any person who possesses a valid license to carry a firearm issued under 18 Pa C.S. Section 6109 (relating to licenses) to be in possession of a loaded or unloaded firearm while engaged in any activity regulated by this title.

(b) Construction.

(1) This section shall supersede any prohibition on the possession of firearms or ammunition contained in any other provision of this title.

(2) This subsection shall not be construed to permit the hunting or harvesting of any wildlife with a firearm or ammunition not otherwise permitted by this title.

(c) Definitions. - As used in this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings given to them in this subsection:

"Firearm." As defined in 18 Pa C.S. §6102 (relating to definitions).

"Law enforcement officer." As defined in 18 Pa C.S. §6102 (relating to definitions).
 

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Not applicable to the question.

SGL range regs clearly prohibit being anywhere with a loaded firearm, other than at an established shooting station at the range firing line.

The regulation and operation of SGL shooting ranges are not part of Title 34. They are under Title 58.
 

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DennyF said:
Not applicable to the question.

SGL range regs clearly prohibit being anywhere with a loaded firearm, other than at an established shooting station at the range firing line.

The regulation and operation of SGL shooting ranges are not part of Title 34. They are under Title 58.

I understand your thinking; however, that's not the way it works.

Look at Title 34, Section 721 (below). A person in violation of PGC range regulations would normally be cited under Title 34, 721, with a cross reference to Title 58, 135.181 on the citation. This is why Title 34, Section 2525 would make possessing a loaded firearm (handgun) while having a valid PA LTCF lawful at locations other than "at an established shooting station on the firing line." on PGC shooting ranges.

As you know, Title 58 (Regulations) are promulgated by the PGC Board of Commissioners, Title 34 (Game & Wildlife Code) is law. Title 34 also specifies the penalties.


Title 34, Sec. 721. Control of property.

(a) General rule. - The administration of all lands or waters owned, leased or otherwise controlled by the commission shall be under the sole control of the director, and the commission shall promulgate regulations consistent with the purpose of this title for its use and protection as necessary to properly manage these lands or waters. The acquisition, use and management of such lands or waters owned, leased or otherwise controlled by the commission, including timber cutting and crop cultivation, shall not be subject to regulation by counties or municipalities.

(b) Penalty. - A violation of regulations promulgated under subsection (a) is a summary offense of the fifth degree.

Title 58, § 131.1. Scope.

(a) This part implements the act.

(b) This part and the act are interrelated, and they shall be construed with reference to each other.
 

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All things considered, I believe most WCOs would enforce the range reg that applies.

Anything else, such as interpretation of any conflicts in the Titles, would have to be brought up when you defend yourself against that citation, most likely? You will probably not talk a WCO out of a citation, based on the above?

In previous discussions here about the no loaded firearm SGL reg, some WCOs have stated they would enforce it at an SGL range.

Some might overlook, some might warn, others may cite? As you know, that's generally how "it works" in law enforcement: Officers cite, court decides, based on testimony/evidence presented, concerning applicability of regs/laws.
 

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DennyF said:
All things considered, I believe most WCOs would enforce the range reg that applies.

Anything else, such as interpretation of any conflicts in the Titles, would have to be brought up when you defend yourself against that citation, most likely? You will probably not talk a WCO out of a citation, based on the above?

In previous discussions here about the no loaded firearm SGL reg, some WCOs have stated they would enforce it at an SGL range.

Some might overlook, some might warn, others may cite? As you know, that's generally how "it works" in law enforcement: Officers cite, court decides, based on testimony/evidence presented, concerning applicability of regs/laws.
This is really NOT an interpretation issue. It's how Title 34 and Title 58
are constructed and applied.

Title 34, Section 2525, language clearly makes possessing a loaded handgun
while having a valid PA LTCF lawful at ANY location on a PGC range.


DennyF said:
... In previous discussions here about the no loaded firearm SGL reg, some WCOs have stated they would enforce it at an SGL range. ...
Please provide a link to one of those posts where they would cite someone
who had a valid LTCF in possession.
 

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Please provide a link to one of those posts where they would cite someone
who had a valid LTCF in possession.
It was most likely on one of the discussions about Todd Getgen's murder at SGL 230? If that was on General Hunting, then it is already gone.

As for interpretation, that will happen when someone is cited under the range reg and their attorney brings up your arguments.

Regs clearly state what they state. Someone else will have to decide whether or not that reg applies to LTCF holders and carrying downrange. PGC could easily clarify that, by redefining their SGL range regs, if your interpretation is correct.
 

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PA Plinker is correct. Title 34 is the gateway. you have to go thru Title 34 (the law) to write a title 58 (regulation) violation.
 

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Granted, but that wasn't a part of my original point about SGL range regs saying what they say about loaded firearms away from the benches. I stated that ranges were under Title 58, in response to his posting that LTCF holders were able to carry under anything covered under Title 34.

The Title 34/Title 58 discussion was raised by him, as allowing for the carry of loaded firearms at SGL ranges.

There is nothing posted (or listed), about an allowance for LTCF holders to skip that part of the range regs.

During the Getgen murder discussion elsewhere here, many said they do now, or would, carry their pistols while hanging targets at SGL ranges. One of your bretheren posted that carrying downrange would be in violation of the range regs. Guessing it was the Lancaster County Grump?



But I think those discussions have passed from the forum, because I cannot find them. General Hunting only keeps 5 pages current, due to bandwidth limitations and I believe that's where the discussion was?
 
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