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Discussion Starter #1
I know some friends of this family . No neglignence involved , just a freak accident . Please send your prayers to this boy and his family .

A 4-year-old Summit Township boy has died following an ATV crash.

Authorities say the crash happened over the weekend while Colbee Lovich was riding at his home off Herman Road. The ATV reportedly rolled onto him following the crash. He was wearing a helmet.

Lovich died Monday at Children's Hospital.

Charges aren't expected to be filed.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Really a 4 yr old . A friend told me he was on a small 50cc quad . He was following his uncle in the yard around the house . When the boy did'nt show up behind the uncle , he went back around and found him under the quad .

Personally , my daughter was plenty big enough for a 50cc when she was 4 . But I was told not to waste my money because kids outgrow a 50cc to quickly . Supervision is the key .Sadly , terrible things do happen reguardless of how carefull we parents are .
 

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Very sad.My son had a 50cc when he was 3.I GOVERNED IT DOWN TO A SLOW WALK and he never left the yard with it.That's how they learn but bad things can happen.
 

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No negligence involved???? A whole lot of people would disagree. Certain things are simply not entrusted to children of such tender years. Knives, guns, chemicals, BB guns, blow torches, etc. A hot internal combustion engine on a machine that can flip, or run into things?

One of my acquaintances had county children and youth come and take his 4 year old because he allowed the kid to ride a horse three miles down the road to grandma's without supervision. (he had done so many times) The kid wasn't even hurt and they wanted to charge him with child endangerment.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
It was explained by dce . Your example zimmer , is apples & oranges . The boy was ( supervised ) . Freak things still can happen .
 

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This a touchy subject.My kids have been riding ATV's and horses since they were old enough to sit.They're both adrenaline junkies and they ride ATV's and horses very hard and fast.I can go on and on with countless stories but I'll just leave it at,they about give me a heart attack daily.They've had close calls and bad wrecks.In fact,they twisted up about 14k worth of ATV's a couple months ago.It was a freak accident and fortunately,they only got banged up.Since that day,they're both more cautious.I'd like to think that little episode will prevent it from happening again.I supervise them but they take risks and learn from it.I'd rather show them the right way when they're young so when they're out with their buddies in a few years,they'll have more sense and experience.

My kids both run barrel horses in rodeos and do very well.My daughter is a two time state champion.She won her first state title when she was 13.She can ride better than most adults as she runs and works very fast horses daily.She's 16 now and I still won't just let her take off on her own.That's just plain stupid.A year ago,she had a boy over and they wanted to go on a trail ride.I almost let them go because they both ride every day.Something told me to go along and it's a good thing I did.The boy had a seizure and fell off.I made him wear a helmet but he was out like a light flopping on the ground.We were pretty far from any roads so I CALLED 911.Prior to the emt's getting there,all the wind went out of him,he stopped breathing and went completely limp.I thought for he had died.No doubt the scariest thing I EVER EXPERIENCED.tHEY ENDED UP LIFE FLIGHTING HIM OUT OF THERE.Thankfully,he was ok and not really hurt.My point is,unless you live in a bubble,sometimes things happen.Negligence is not always at play.I've been around horses and ATV's most of my life.Our horses are extremely well trained and disciplined but they still have minds of their own.My kids are good ATV riders but they're kids and make poor choices.They don't ride without me being close by.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Very well spoken dce . Congradulations to raising a very talented young lady . As you stated , you can't live in a bubble . But as parents we'll always worry no matter how old our children are . I can't tell you how many times I've been accused of being a little over protective at times . I've had my daughter canoeing , power boating , swimming , ATVing , Rock Climbing and riding ponies/horses since she was 3 yrs. old . Sure I've had a few scary moments , but you can't describe the look on a childs face when they accomplish something they only moments before thought impossible . I know some day my little girl will be a strong , self confident young lady . But as a loving parent I will ALWAYS worry . That's just what good parents do . I want her to experience as much as life has to offer ( within reason ) so when she's out in the world on her own , she will hopefully make good common sence choices .
 

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That's my goal as well.Kids may be skilled at certain things but they lack judgment.That comes with time and experience.Again,I can go on and on about all the crazy things they've pulled but I'll spare you the details.Kids like to have fun and some of the things they do have risk.Overcoming risk,if done correctly builds confidence and character.Things can still happen even when no risk is involved.
 

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An ATV can snap a childs neck in a second..ATVs and motorcycles are extremely dangerous to people of all ages..Power and speed maims and kills..
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Unfortunately you are correct when driven incorrectly . But as we read in the news every day , so does football , hockey , baseball , falling down steps or into a swimming pool and traveling 50-70 miles an hour down the highway when involved in an accident . Bad things happen to good people every day . Adults & children alike . Very sad , but still a fact .
 

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This negligence business is way out of hand IMO. We are putting good people in jail and further ruining lives over accidents. Accidents happen. We are way out of line with this negligence issue IMO. Every one of us is "negligent" according to today's philosophy at some time. Many of us have just been lucky a bad accident hasn't happened during those times. What a horrible accident that took this boy's life. What a sentence his parents/family must live with. Let's not dig and dig to find something we know we are all guilty of at one time or another.
 

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The boy was ( supervised ) ?? Somebody had to go back and see why he wasn't following. It was not "immediate" supervision.

As for apples and oranges, horses and dogs can be very loyal, territorial and protective. They do have the potential to act to protect young children and keep them from some kinds of harm. They can be better babysitters than adult humans.

A machine can't match that and does anything the operator intentionally or unintentionally pushes it's controls to do.

Most folks would not let a 4 yr old fry an egg for breakfast without hovering over him/her and staying within arms reach. They would not let that same 4 yr old use a pair of scissors with sharp points.

When I taught my 8 yd old daughter to shoot, I was right there always able to grab the ammo and gun. I was not at the next shooting position, or around the corner. Even on a farm, you don't let a 4 yr old out of sight, too many dangerous things around.

The fact that the machine could go fast enough to tip/roll and the 4 yr old was out of sight, would be questionable supervision in the minds of many folks.

I have handled products liability cases and can see where the arguments to the jury would go.
 

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Farm guy, I agree that the "negligence" thing is getting out of hand, however, Even back when I took a hunter safety course, the instructor said there are no such things as accidents, only failures to take precautions.
 

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I will concede that the "no such thing as accidents stance" may be appropriate for trading new hunters. In reality I don't buy it. The result of that philosophy is that someone is always at fault for everything. Everyone can always make ourselves feel better by pointing the finger at others. We end up with a society that is fearful, judgemental, and far from free. No one is always vigilant. As far as the farm statement goes, If I was not left alone as a youngster of the age we are speaking of, the most formative years...I would not be the outdoorsman, conservationist, and person I am today. Yep. I may have died in an accident. A free society can never guarantee the safety of anyone...kids included. I do not doubt for a minute what your juries would decide...I absolutely believe it. I don't think it helps society one bit. How hypocritical to point out everyone else's negligence. This is the same society that would put me in jail for offering candy to a child. We are living as slaves in fear!
 

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The very first statement was that there was no negligence, even though the child was not in sight and the "adult" had to turn around and go back to see why he wasn't following.

The statement that there was no negligence is what I questioned by pointing out that many people could have a different opinion. It is a tragic loss and I'll bet the parents are re-evaluating their supervision as part of their sorrow. Then it often leads to one parent blaming the other. Over half of the couples that lose a child in an "accident" divorce within a year, and blame, whether well founded or not is a motivating factor.

In a case here in York County, a mother left her children sleeping in the house and went directly across the street to a bar, where she sat in such a way that she could see the front of the house. The children were 5 months, 3 years and 5 years. Adequate supervision? Children and Youth Services didn't think so. What if it were not a bar, but just to visit a neighbor across the street? Any difference to the potential danger to the children?

If a 18 yr old kid drives his $200 uninspected used car down the road with marginal tires at 100 mph and he loses control because of a blowout and rolls over children playing in their front yard, is it a mere accident?

It simply is at what point between gross and wanton behavior and a mere preventable accident should people be held accountable for their behavior. The world has become so complex that what is reckless and extremely dangerous to one person may not seem dangerous at all to another.

I know that the neighbor kids could get hurt badly playing on my tractor, yet when I asked their mother to keep them home, she saw no danger. There are some sharp edges on the attachments, they could possible start it rolling and fall under the wheel. They could actually start it and roll it over on them selves. (push button ignition) The mother was dumb as a brick, thinking it no different than monkey bars for climbing on it. But I guarantee, had her brats been hurt, she would have blamed it on some trumped up negligence for which I would be blamed. Despite the fact that they climb over a fence to get there.

I just got a call from my wife that the brats were there again when she got home from work. So now I have to take even more precautions to keep them safe from their mother's negligent lack of supervision. A letter will be delivered to momma by the constable, at my expense. I will probably have to start locking the tractor in the barn, a major pain for me, having to carry a key and unlock and lock all the time. Because that twit can't supervise her brats.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
{ The fact that the machine could go fast enough to tip/roll and the 4 yr old was out of sight, would be questionable supervision in the minds of many folks. QUOTE }

Zimmerstutzen , Forgive me for not understanding your ( no negligence ) position . I was'nt looking at it as a Frivolous lawsuit type situation . Ambulance chasing lawyers can always trump up something with todays money hungry society . As far as the ATV being to fast , a friend at work watched within 30 feet as his 3 yr. old boy rolled his battery operated Jeep because the wheel caught an oak tree root and took the wheel right up the tree . He was going about 5mph. when it rolled . I guess he could have been charged with negligence since he did'nt recognize the possibility of this accident potencial and have all the trees cleared from his yard prior to his child riding his new toy . If life were up to lawyers , we could'nt even take baths in our own homes since slipping in our tubs is one of the highest risks people take in thier homes ...


[ I have handled products liability cases and can see where the arguments to the jury would go. QUOTE ]

No such thing as an accident ? You would'nt be an Industrial Insurance lawyer by chance would you ?
 
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