The HuntingPA.com Outdoor Community banner

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,798 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Biggio gets in hitting .281 with 291 HRs, but Bonds and Clemens (who never broke a rule) don't. Character issues?

Ty Cobb-possibly one of the most foul people ever to set foot on an athletic field--unquestioned HOFer, first ballot.

Babe Ruth-Alcoholic womanizer, considered by many, including me, to be the most important player in the game's history.

Mickey Mantle-switch hitting version of the Babe.

Shoeless Joe Jackson-teammates threw a World Series, he didn't. Can't even get on the ballot.

Pete Rose is different. He knowingly broke one of the games most stringent rules. He deserves what he's getting. No, he's not the only guy to ever do it, but you can only punish the guys you catch.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,338 Posts
Who's to say Biggio wasn't juicing? Just never caught.
HOF is just basically a collection of stats.
Kinda hard to have a Legit HOF when
the all time hits leader (Rose)
the all time hr leader (Bonds)
guy in top 10 in wins (Clemens)

Not in. ???
Guys can be jerks , shouldn't matter.
Not a HOF for personality.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,798 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Rose made his own bed. He broke a very well known and clear rule. Bonds, Clemens, McGwire and the others did not. If they did juice, they broke a law. I bet there are a few guys who are in the HOF that broke a law or three.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,834 Posts
steelerfan58 said:
Rose made his own bed. He broke a very well known and clear rule. Bonds, Clemens, McGwire and the others did not. If they did juice, they broke a law. I bet there are a few guys who are in the HOF that broke a law or three.
You know Bonds, Clemens, and Big Mac all juiced......


Pete Rose deserves to be in the HOF, as does Shoeless Joe, the others I don't know
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
40,339 Posts
Pete Rose deserves to be in the HOF, as does Shoeless Joe, the others I don't know
Pete Rose agreed to a ban from baseball. Case closed on him.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,798 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Buckshot1822 said:
steelerfan58 said:
Rose made his own bed. He broke a very well known and clear rule. Bonds, Clemens, McGwire and the others did not. If they did juice, they broke a law. I bet there are a few guys who are in the HOF that broke a law or three.
You know Bonds, Clemens, and Big Mac all juiced......


Pete Rose deserves to be in the HOF, as does Shoeless Joe, the others I don't know
I believe they were as well. A lot of other guys were too. Steroids didn't give Bonds and Mac the unreal hand eye coordination. I honestly think a lot of the HR numbers were a result of a lot of marginally talented pitchers juicing so they could throw 100 mph. Oliver Perez comes to mind. The problem is that a lot of them threw it right down the middle. Clemens didn't give up many more HR balls later than he did earlier in his career. He knew how to pitch. In any case, I have a hard time calling them cheaters when they followed the rules of the game. How many guys are in the football HOF that juiced during a time when it didn't violate a rule? Rose knew the consequences when he agreed to a lifetime ban. We all know big, strong guys. They ain't playing major league baseball. There are a lot of guys who juiced that did not have the kind of success of Bonds and Clemens. They are forgotten, because THEY WEREN'T GOOD ENOUGH. You have to look at the era in which guys played. Case in point-Carl Yastrzemski once won a batting title hitting a "stellar" .301. HRs league wide were up during the time Bonds played. Griffey Jr was clean, and his numbers rose as well. Something else, besides raw strength increase, must have been involved.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,783 Posts
I cant take any HOF seriously that doesn't admit the greatest hitter and the best home run hitter in the history of the game.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
40,339 Posts
If you're referring to Pete Rose as the greatest hitter it's not even close. While Rose may have the most hits he is 172nd on the list in lifetime batting average.

Ty Cobb hit .366. Pete hit .303. Babe Ruth hit .342 with a few more homers than Pete.

Pete would have been a first ballot Hall of Famer but he messed up. He agreed to a lifetime ban. He's not in because of things he did, not MLB.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,413 Posts
PED'S are prevelent in every sport played on the planet at every level. Guys use PED's to play slow pitch softball for trophys for crying out loud. It's been going on in baseball since the early 1980's, and the NFL since the 1970's. Track and field and weight lifting are probably where it began. As much as we want our sports to be pure they never will be. Is there anyone alive who thinks the NFL is steroid free? If there is I got a bridge to sell ya.
It's not just money although it is a major contributing factor. Ego drives the athlete as well. His own competitive nature constantly spurring him on.
The mountain of evidence baseball aquired on Rose and his gambling will forever keep him out of the hall and yes he accepted the ban to keep that evidence hidden. Rose was and still is lying trash.
It is an interesting discussion and a bit late because there are already players in the baseball HOF who used PED's and Canton is filled with them. Heck Tommy John surgery is performance enhancing isn't it? Baseball and football players have been using amphetamines forever. Need we bring Lawrence Taylor into this discussion? Cocaine on the field? during the games?
We know Canseco was right now and baseball had to admit it so where are we? No player can ever be deemed clean, from Griffey to Biggio so the only fair way is numbers.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
4,249 Posts
Two good articles on ESPN that last few days about who got in and who didn't.

I say put Bonds, Big Mac, Clemens and the rest all in. It takes way more then huge muscles to hit home runs or throw great pitches. Like was mentioned, they didn't break the rules.

I am still a proponent of putting Rose in too. Not having the all time hits leader in just doesn't sit right with me. I know he did break the rules but it still just doesn't feel right.

What blows my mind is the process, guys like Bagwell, IMO, aren't necessarily HoF worthy but he will likely get in but guys like Lee Smith and Carlos Delgado struggle to get in. Well Delgado will never get in he was booted after his first year.

The system is broken and there is no sign they intend to fix it. Actually I think they made it worse by cutting eligibility to 10 years instead of 15.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,413 Posts
I suggest strongly to go ahead and put Rose in along with every piece of evidence MLB aquired about his degenerate gambling habit, how he bet on and against a team he managed while he managed it. How he lied to the public about it for 20 years even though he admitted to MLB he did it and agreed to his lifetime ban to protect his stupid legacy. He could have his own seperate piece of the hall and would be teachable exibit for all to see, how and why the hits king can never wear that crown. Character matters in all walks of life. You cannot manage a baseball team and gamble on it kiddies.
The man is distainful and is still selling autographs and memorabilia to those he willingly duped.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
40,339 Posts
The man is distainful and is still selling autographs and memorabilia to those he willingly duped.
The fact that he is not in the Hall has cost him a bundle of money over the years. Autographs from a HofF player sell for more than someone not in the Hall. That tortures him as much as not being among the greats to play the game. I say keep him out and let him sell his signature in Las Vegas.

Btw, I think your description of him as distainful is right on. I'd like to add disgustingly arrogant if I may.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,413 Posts
When I was learning the game in my youth my father pointed out Charlie Hustle and said "thats how you play the game boy". I loved Charlie Hustle.......and learned to hate Pete Rose because he never respected the game after all.
Plus I never got over his statement about Garber not challenging him with a fastball when Gene's breaking ball ended "the streak"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
40,339 Posts
The Gene Garber thing really annoyed me too. IIRC, he said that Garber pitched him like it was the 7th game of the World Series. Shouldn't he do his best to get him out? Isn't that the object of the game?

Well, Gene Garber can always say that he was the guy who stopped Rose's hitting streak.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,783 Posts
lynxone said:
I suggest strongly to go ahead and put Rose in along with every piece of evidence MLB aquired about his degenerate gambling habit, how he bet on and against a team he managed while he managed it. How he lied to the public about it for 20 years even though he admitted to MLB he did it and agreed to his lifetime ban to protect his stupid legacy. He could have his own seperate piece of the hall and would be teachable exibit for all to see, how and why the hits king can never wear that crown. Character matters in all walks of life. You cannot manage a baseball team and gamble on it kiddies.
The man is distainful and is still selling autographs and memorabilia to those he willingly duped.
No matter how much of an azzhat he is, he still has more hits than anyone. Whether or not he's in the HOF doesn't have any effect on that, but if he's not at least mentioned in the HOF it makes the HOF seem diluted and stupid. Same is not including Bonds. They (the HOF) doesn't need to celebrate these guys, but they do need to acknowledge them. They were the best at what they did, in their time. Isn't that what the HOF is all about?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,798 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
I think stuff like the bat Rose used to break Cobb's record is in the Hall. Same with Bonds. Honestly, it is possible that the bets Rose placed did not effect how he managed. Unlikely, but possible. With the PED guys, its more complex. The fact of the matter is that Mantle likely doesn't get over 500 home runs without the heavy painkillers he took for his knees. Other guys hurt too, they didn't take them, even though they were available. Where exactly is the line drawn? Tylenol kills pain. Some guys won't take it, because it causes liver damage. Should the guys who do use it be penalized?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,798 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
lynxone said:
When I was learning the game in my youth my father pointed out Charlie Hustle and said "thats how you play the game boy". I loved Charlie Hustle.......and learned to hate Pete Rose because he never respected the game after all.
Plus I never got over his statement about Garber not challenging him with a fastball when Gene's breaking ball ended "the streak"
Funny thing about that-Garber did give him one fastball. Rose, IN A 16-4 GAME, tried to bunt it for a hit. This is like stealing bases in a lopsided game. Technically legal, but considered bush league. But Rose forgets that part.
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top