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Discussion Starter #1
Since the Gwynn thread isn't about this, I figured I'd make a new one. Guys I think should be there, but aren't:

Bonds/McGuire-NEVER BROKE A RULE!! Illegal if true, yes. Not exactly the first guys to use illegal drugs. Grover Cleveland Alexander, Ruth and Mantle were all alcoholics as well, with Mantle and Ruth getting the added bonus of womanizing. The steroids didn't make them great hitters, either, in fact, in Bonds case, it actually made him a less complete player. A bigger effect of the steroid era, and a much bigger reason for the power surge, was juiced pitchers that had the ability to throw 100 mph, but without pinpoint control. Clemens didn't give up home runs after he hit the juice (allegedly), because he could actually pitch. A Rod is different. It was against the rules then.

Clemens--A tool of a person, perhaps. See Cobb, Ty.

Randy Johnson-5 time Cy young, second in strikeouts, 300+ wins, World Series title.

Shoeless Joe Jackson--all involved with the fix of the 1919 Series unequivocally deny Jackson's involvement. His numbers from that Series don't support his involvement. .356 career average (which is third all time), .375 in the series. Kinda odd numbers for a guy trying to lose. 1700 hits, but in only 10 seasons. Excellent outfielder as well.



I'm not including Rose. He bet on games involving his own team. It was CLEARLY a violation of baseball's rules. I can't say 100% that his lifetime ban is without justification. He knew the consequences. Yes, without the gambling, there is no possible way he shouldn't be in. In contrast to Jackson, Rose created this for himself, he wasn't lumped in with the actions of others by a tyrannical Goodell like commissioner.
 

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For me, the jury is still out on the PED era. I'll let it up to the "higher ups" to decide if these guys get in. I do know Bonds was one of the best players I'd ever seen. But, there is a huge difference between alcohol, and PED's. I'm not sure you can use one to make the case for the other.

Randy Johnson's first year of eligibility is next year, he'll go in sooner rather than later.

Shoeless Joe is guilty by association, and that is a shame.

Like you say, Pete is getting what he signed up for.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
If cheating is the reason the PED guys can't get in, explain Gaylord Perry. What he did was illegal since 1920. Are certain kinds of cheating--which is actually against the rules--acceptable, while other types, which isn't against the rules, not? Makes perfect sense. John McGraw used to trip baserunners. The spitter was made illegal because it led to a man's death. The only people who may die over PED's are the users themselves. On the same note, if you were using following the rule change, you absolutely do not deserve the Hall.
 
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