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Looks like the Army is finally going to get away from the 9mm and back to a larger caliber, good move.

But who writes this stuff?

“We are not dictating a caliber during the competition,” the spokesperson said. “A vendor may submit multiple calibers of ammunition. However, the ammunition must exceed the performance of the current M882 9mm round.”

Among those likely to be considered in the Modular Handgun System competition are the .40 and .45 caliber rounds.

The argument against the .40 caliber round is that its heavier weight and stronger recoil causes excessive wear on a 9 mm pistol.
Huh?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/07/...ter-knock-down/
 

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Yeah, I don't know what they are trying to say.

Having had the 9mm Beretta issued to me during my time on active duty (Aviation). I sure was glad to have been issued the M4 during combat operations. The Beretta was great in a pinch (when compared to the M-16 and much better than the .38 pistol that was previously issued). But my intent if downed, was to get as far away from the bad guys as possible and the Beretta was a close quarters firearm only.
 

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When it comes down to it a hand gun round with FMJ's is a poor choice when it comes to "knockdown" power.
 

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Given that the FMJ bullets in the various pistol cartridges are notoriously poor stoppers so increasing bore diameter is one way to compensate that because expanding bullets are not allowed when it is important to kill people. Going back to the future to the 110yr old .45ACP makes sense. Usually pistols in combat are used as a last resort until you can get your hands on another rifle.
 

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The US had plenty of experience with the 9mm (Germany used them in WWII) and they knew it was an inadequate round but they went with it anyway, supposedly because of NATO.

From what I've heard there are three cartridges under consideration......357sig, 40S&W and 45ACP.
 

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good ole boy said:
They need to get away from FMJ,that is the problem.
Geneva convention rules from way back....The aim of war is not to kill the opponent, but to disable him and make him a liability to the enemy by requiring him to take up manpower by being attended to.The main advantage of the 9mm is that it can hold more ammo and it it is a small round of which many more can be carried....45 ACP is limited in this regard.
 

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I like carry and ammo for a 9mm because of weight but I would feel better with a 45 ACP.Soldiers could care less about any convention when life is on the line.I know some that used their knife to cut an X in the metal jacket so they would expand.We also use RPGs,drones,mortors and land mines all designed to kill.So Geneva is a joke or more correctly a feel good about war smoke screen.
 

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Big Ken said:
good ole boy said:
They need to get away from FMJ,that is the problem.
Geneva convention rules from way back....The aim of war is not to kill the opponent, but to disable him and make him a liability to the enemy by requiring him to take up manpower by being attended to.The main advantage of the 9mm is that it can hold more ammo and it it is a small round of which many more can be carried....45 ACP is limited in this regard.
The Geneva convention has nothing to do with the type of ammo used during combat. The treaty covers the treatment of prisoners and humanitarian stuff, in short.

The Hague Convention of 1899 covers the type of ammo that can be used in combat. Also, the USA never signed it.
 

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We start using hoppow points, they start using exploding bullets and on and on. Better off using FMJ. It takes more people to care for the wounded than to carry off the dead when they get around to it.
 

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The 40 S&W was developed by the FBI to diminish recoil, that was extreme in the .45, had to get back on target much quicker. The .40 works, why more studies from one Fed agency to another...
 

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Steve in PA said:
Another fine example of wasting money looking for that "magic" bullet or caliber.
Agreed!

Unless going to some cartridge that is too hot to handle, shooting bullets designed to expand and fired out of a pistol that is too large to carry the 9mm/.40/.45 etc are the choices. All are effective when placed in a vital area but there are no magic bullets in any useable pistol caliber that impart enough force or energy on a non vital hit that will end a determined enemy. Nobody gets flung off their feet on any hit let alone hoping some mythical energy wipes out an opponent on a non vital hit.
That 9mm bullet in the heart or brain will end things just as quickly as the .40 and .45 in the same spots will. All are equally as ineffective when placed in non vital areas.
 

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RonM said:
The 40 S&W was developed by the FBI to diminish recoil, that was extreme in the .45, had to get back on target much quicker. The .40 works, why more studies from one Fed agency to another...
I think the .40 S&W was developed to diminish the recoil of the 10mm Auto.
The 10mm auto was designed to provide the energy+ of the .45 but also have increased magazine capacity in 9mm sized pistols. What was found was that the 10mm produced too much recoil in those pistols so they had to tame it down a bit in order for the majority of FBI/LE to shoot it accurately. If used in full sized .45 style pistols the round is more manageable but the capacity is decreased to .45 levels so no real advantage is had.
 

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RonM said:
The 40 S&W was developed by the FBI to diminish recoil, that was extreme in the .45, had to get back on target much quicker. The .40 works, why more studies from one Fed agency to another...
The 40 S&W came about because the FBI thought the 10MM Auto had to much recoil and was just too big for the hands of some of the trainees. All they did was take the 10MM Auto and make it short and wimpy (S&W). lol. Also, I think a Glock 23 has a sharper recoil than the 45 ACP 1911.
 

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John S said:
We start using hoppow points, they start using exploding bullets and on and on. Better off using FMJ. It takes more people to care for the wounded than to carry off the dead when they get around to it.
Really though, lately our forces are fighting non-conventional troops that are using non-conventional weapons and tactics. These "troops" do not adhere to any official documents about how war is supposed to be fought so I would rather see them shot and killed outright rather than rely on some coward that is already hiding in a school, mosque, or behind a civilian doing the right thing for his fallen wounded comrade and running out from cover to take himself out of the fight and drag the other guy off.
Shoot em both with the best ammunition we can design.
 

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IMO they should have NEVER abandoned the M1911 45 ACP. I carried one as an Asst. Gunner on the M60 machinegun years ago. IMO no better combat pistol has ever been designed!
 

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RobOz said:
RonM said:
The 40 S&W was developed by the FBI to diminish recoil, that was extreme in the .45, had to get back on target much quicker. The .40 works, why more studies from one Fed agency to another...


The 40 S&W came about because the FBI thought the 10MM Auto had to much recoil and was just too big for the hands of some of the trainees. All they did was take the 10MM Auto and make it short and wimpy (S&W). lol. Also, I think a Glock 23 has a sharper recoil than the 45 ACP 1911.
It should have a sharper recoil becuz it is a significantly higher pressure cartridge - the recoil impulse will FEEL much sharper to a human holding the gun. In reality, it is not MORE recoil per se but "FASTER" recoil if that makes sense.

You guys are making the classic mistake of ASSUMING that an existing cartridge will be used. The 45 ACP, 40 S & W, 9mm and every other cal. out there would not have come about if there was no looking for a better mousetrap - they're looking for a better mousetrap - shakin' the tree to see what falls out so to speak. If you're gonna carry all that weight, might as well have more rounds AND power as in the 10mm.....or maybe something like a standardized Dillon 9 x 25mm would be better, or.......? This will take years of R & D and debate, companies will propose new ideas (just like Browning did so many years ago) and maybe we're no better off this time around. Without this process though, we'd still be launching rocks with our hands.
 

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I would much rather have FMJ rounds in combat than hollow points. HP's would work well assuming every shot you get is directly into a soft body target.

Combat doesn't really work like that and most people tend to hide behind things like doors, walls, cars, and anything else that provides them cover. When shooting through an object to hit someone on the other side, I would much rather have FMJ than a HP.

Also, this whole shooting to wound thing for manpower sounds like a McNamara era idea. Generally if you can see the enemy, you shoot them, and you keep shooting them until they either leave your field of fire or they are most assuredly dead. It's really not that hard to do a mag dump into a target.

This tactic would have failed in Iraq as the Insurgents would never help each other out. There were no hospitals or anything like that to take them too. The most they would take would be the weapons and equipment that they could and then they would bounce leaving all their buddies.

I would love to have been able to use something .45 while in the Army. I never liked the 9mm Beretta, mainly because the one I carried was a beat up piece of crap that I wouldn't give someone $100 for. I was told by one of the Brigade Armament Chiefs that we had the 9mm Beretta because of females and that it was small round with light enough recoil that they could handle it and also that the grip on the Beretta isn't all that large for smaller hands. Whether that's true or not I don't know but it definitely sounds plausible. And with all of the add females to infantry mentality and blah blah blah stuff like that going on down in DC, I doubt they'll step up to anything decent for a long time.

I'll take that movement seriously when they start advocating that all women on their 18th birthday have to sign up for the draft......
 
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