[willyp]

Why do so many folks have to use,or try to, the maximum load in a muzzle loader ? Some folks try it right from the begging of their shooting of a new rifle .
It is so much better and satisfying to start low and then try going up slow ! Then you may see how the gun handles it ?
I could be wrong but i am happy with my results .

 

[Blue Bird]

Because idiots abound everywhere....

I had a guy almost laugh at me one time when he asked me how much powder I was using, and I told him 80 grains of 2fg behind a .530 t0 .535 ball. He said "oh that load is no good for deer hunting, you need at least 100 to 110 grains". At that point I knew he was a clueless moron, so I told him to hit the road.

 

[Marcus99]

Bigger is better mentality. Same reason guys deer hunt with .300win mag or bigger.

 

[Woods walker]

This is America brother, bigger is better, didn't you know that?

 

[blackpowder]

so, just to throw out some numbers for you all: .530 rb, 28" barrel. 0 @50 yards.

80gr 2f = 1519 fps 100gr 2f = 1590 fps


75 yards -2.7" 75 yards -2.5"
100 yards -7.7" 100 yards -7.4"

or: 70 gr 3f = 1512 fps

not worth getting beat up or using the extra powder for!

 

[zimmerstutzen]

been saying that here for years. But the popeye syndrome runs deep in every Bubba across the country. If hitting something is good, hitting it harder is better. ie more powder. They never stop to think of the fact that extra powder is often simply burned in muzzle flash and the velocity gains are minimal while the pressure still spike upward. They think somehow that white tail have evolved into the dangerous game of 1800's Africa and attempt to copy the loads used by the great African hunters of the mid 1800's.
Gun companies do not help the matter by peddling fancy plastic tipped bullets and nuclear propellant pellets are guaranteed to shoot straighter and hit harder, for so long as they can pick the customers pocket for a premium price. This isn't the wide pen spaces of the Northern Plains, In PA most deer are shot at 30 to 40 yards. You don't need a 400 yd Buffalo killer load. Some guys apparently can't tell a white tail from a cape buffalo.

 

[nomad_archer]

Bigger is better mentality. Same reason guys deer hunt with .300win mag or bigger.

What are you trying to say about me huntin' with a .300 win? Just kidding. I use it because thats my only huntin rifle but I acknowledge that it is way more then plenty for deer. It is scary to think of people starting at max charge. I have limited experience with ML but I know that with centerfire reloading you need to start low and work up. My .300 mag shows presssure signs well before max charge. I'm thinking many ML guys may not understand the risk of going to max charge out of the gate. Pretty scary stuff.

 

[BUBBABUCK]

so, just to throw out some numbers for you all: .530 rb, 28" barrel. 0 @50 yards.

80gr 2f = 1519 fps 100gr 2f = 1590 fps


75 yards -2.7" 75 yards -2.5"
100 yards -7.7" 100 yards -7.4"

or: 70 gr 3f = 1512 fps

not worth getting beat up or using the extra powder for!

Is there a formula to roughly figure out your velocity and trajectory?

 

[Marcus99]

What are you trying to say about me huntin' with a .300 win? Just kidding. I use it because thats my only huntin rifle but I acknowledge that it is way more then plenty for deer. It is scary to think of people starting at max charge. I have limited experience with ML but I know that with centerfire reloading you need to start low and work up. My .300 mag shows presssure signs well before max charge. I'm thinking many ML guys may not understand the risk of going to max charge out of the gate. Pretty scary stuff.

Ya I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with it. My primary deer rifle is a 7mmWSM so I'm not too far off in terms of power. Like you, I acknowledge that it's more than enough for deer. I know I don't NEED all the power. If that's all you have to use, you're better off than someone that only has a .223 hahaha.

 

[Shiftyshad]

I just got into muzzleloaders this year and got a CVA. I'm very impressed with the info that they put out, particularly youtube videos. I followed they're recommendations of two white hots and powerbelts and the thing shot great right off the bat. I know both of these are not recommended by most hardcore muzzloading guys but if I can put three shots touching at 75 yards with it I'm pretty confident as I probably wouldn't take a much longer shot anyway. Not sure why people would go with three whitehots just because the ballistics chart has info for that load. I learned the overloading lesson with my .280. Ammo ain't easy to find so I took the first box I found. Decent two shot group, adjust sights, shot goes 8 inches the other way. Just as i thought it was dialed it would throw one. Over and over; I was convinced that I was just a bad shot. Finally got some good advise to try a smaller load and I no longer question my shooting.

 

[Born2Hunt]

Just starting to really work with my flinter and I am starting with a light load which shoots accurate. Really see no reason to change just practice so I get use to the delay.

However, I went through all that speed and power, first with archery for years shot 78 lbs...probably why I have had both biceipts attached and a troublesome left shoulder. Now shoot bucks and black bear with 55 lbs. and it kills them just as dead. Shot placement key.

All my rifles, deer, target and varmint shoot more accuracy below the max. loads.

I have found that I no longer need a Indy type engine to get from point A to point B.

After spending tons of $$$$ I have found I am the only I need to impress.

I am thrill to no longer be part of the speed school whereas, I now enjoy shooting more. Hoping to get out to the range before Christmas to drop the hammer on the ole finter.

 

[bob1961]

I am thrill to no longer be part of the speed school whereas, I now enjoy shooting more. Hoping to get out to the range before Christmas to drop the hammer on the ole finter.

yup and you can say this with arrows as well, I have a Excalibur exocet 200 that comes with an est of 350 fps with a 350 gr arrow....guess what I shoot out of it ? a 500 gr arrow that is a lot more quiet then a 350 gr arrow....yup speed kills, but not the way one thinks it does, lol....

 

[tdd]

So, it seems we have this thread some time every year. Sometimes more than once.

I'll ask again...why is anyone worried about this?

If you see me in the woods with my flintlock, can you tell what charge I'm shooting? If you can, I'd like to learn how.

If you see me at the range, can you tell? Maybe from the report/flash...but probably not.

I don't care if someone wants to take a 45-cal to the woods shooting 45gr of 2f or a 69cal shooting 150gr. Why would I? It's their gun, their money on powder and lead...not mine.

I've said it before...if I just told you what I shoot in my 62, you'll say "that's dumb, you don't need to shoot that much." And you'd sort of be correct.

I don't have to shoot that much if I want to drift and file my sights. But through time and experimentation, I determined that, without touching my sights and by putting in the charge I do, they are spot on and I get a nice trajectory that lets me point and shoot to 100 yards. Do I waste powder? Perhaps. I'll argue that even if I waste half the powder I shoot, I'm still not seeing powder as my limiting factor in how much I shoot.

I sometimes think we've got "anti-magnumitis" issues at times, too. You have people who want to have the bigger, badder gun, and then you have people who, for similar "look at me" reasons, want to shoot smaller/lighter to show it can be done.

And I'll never....ever...understand why anyone cares what anyone else shoots. I shoot a 62 for a few reasons, as if I need to justify it....

1- The rifle I have is based on the rifle built by Johannes Schreit in Reading in 1761. This is a known and historical long rifle, and my rifle is built in a fashion resembling it. The original, as it sits now, is a 60, I believe. The early guns were bigger bores. I decided to do likewise, and a 62 would actually lighten the rifle a bit because it was going to need a D-weight barrel either way, so a 62 would take a little more metal out of the blank.

2- I'd hunted many years with a 50 and I wanted a 54 or bigger, just for a bit bigger ball because I prefer it.

3- It's different.

4- I can.

So, when I got my rifle, I started at 80gr of 2F. Then I worked up 10gr (by volume) and really didn't see tons of difference in groups. It does group better hotter than lighter, though, to a degree. The Hoyt barrel is slightly quicker in twist that might be expected, in hopes of a smaller charge being accurate (it's a 1:56). 80 was ok, so was 90. 100 was better in groups, and I noticed they were getting closer to POA as I worked up. I kept going.

At 120, they were smack on POA without touching the sights.

The rifle is big....2.5" wide buttplate with a 46" D-weight swamped barrel. It's not a toothpick. Recoil from that charge is not even close to difficult to absorb. It's nowhere close to a magnum bolt gun. Not even comparable. The Schreit rifle was big, and I'm 6'2, so building it to my LOP and with my preferred barrel length resulted in a pretty big gun. I don't hunt the mountains, so that's no big deal for me.

The rifle hits about 2" high at 50, and about an inch low at 100. So...point and shoot to 100. Perfect.

So I roll with the charge of 120gr of 2F for all of those reasons. But....if I just said "I shoot 120gr," I'd likely be accused of doing it to make some statement about my masculinity, hunting prowess, or whatever. It's nothing of the sort. I shoot it to get the results I wanted for regulation of my sights and trajectory along with desired accuracy.

And again...why do we care what others do?

 

[blackpowder]

Is there a formula to roughly figure out your velocity and trajectory?

fps, energy and pressure's can be found in the Lyman Blackpowder handbook. all based on your load. trajectory can be calculated on the online Roundball Balistic Calculator. I have field tested speed with a chronograph and the book and also calculator on targets. both are plenty close enough for our needs.

 

[tdd]

I want to chrono my long rifle with my magnetospeed chrono. I just got it this year for use with my bolt guns, and it would work on the long rifle, too.

The RB calculator, when I compare my observed, "real world" trajectory to what the calculator spits out, should back me into a speed that's pretty close to actual speeds that I'm getting.

It matters not a bit what that speed is, really....I wasn't after a specific velocity. A 324gr ball doesn't have to be going warp speed to kill stuff. I'm just curious to see how close the calculator and my range experiences combined got to the chrono'ed speed. Just 'cuz.

I've killed three deer with my rifle since i got it in 2014, and none seemed to think it wasn't doing what it was intended to do, lol.

 

[blackpowder]

I want to chrono my long rifle with my magnetospeed chrono. I just got it this year for use with my bolt guns, and it would work on the long rifle, too.

The RB calculator, when I compare my observed, "real world" trajectory to what the calculator spits out, should back me into a speed that's pretty close to actual speeds that I'm getting.

It matters not a bit what that speed is, really....I wasn't after a specific velocity. A 324gr ball doesn't have to be going warp speed to kill stuff. I'm just curious to see how close the calculator and my range experiences combined got to the chrono'ed speed. Just 'cuz.

I've killed three deer with my rifle since i got it in 2014, and none seemed to think it wasn't doing what it was intended to do, lol.

my prediction on your load is going to be around 1500 fps or a touch more. you shoot 120 gr of 2F and I am shooting 90 gr of 3f. it will be interesting to see on the difference in the powder. my 0 is 100 yards and at 140 yards I am 10"-12" low actual not calculated.

 

[tdd]

The RB calculator says to get my observed points of impact at 50 and 100 I’d need 1700fps and change.

If it’s 1500 or 1700 is not real important, since I have what I was after for trajectory and it has killed deer quite nicely thus far.

But my curiosity wants to know. Lol

 

[blackpowder]

The RB calculator says to get my observed points of impact at 50 and 100 I’d need 1700fps and change.

If it’s 1500 or 1700 is not real important, since I have what I was after for trajectory and it has killed deer quite nicely thus far.

But my curiosity wants to know. Lol

with my 0 at 100, i'am getting 3" high at 50, which seems to be my "peak" and it is coming down from there. that is on paper, which is what the calculator is telling me. my gun also isn't too bad at the bench, although about 10-12 shots at a time is enough for me. its nothing like the .32 or the .36! you should also pick up some on the barrel length, mine is 37".

 

[Blue Bird]

They think somehow that white tail have evolved into the dangerous game of 1800's Africa and attempt to copy the loads used by the great African hunters of the mid 1800's.
.

Amen..These guys must think the deer are walking around wearing plate armor, and we all know you need a cannon to defeat plate armor.

 

[Blue Bird]

So, it seems we have this thread some time every year. Sometimes more than once.

I'll ask again...why is anyone worried about this?

If you see me in the woods with my flintlock, can you tell what charge I'm shooting? If you can, I'd like to learn how.

If you see me at the range, can you tell? Maybe from the report/flash...but probably not.

I don't care if someone wants to take a 45-cal to the woods shooting 45gr of 2f or a 69cal shooting 150gr. Why would I? It's their gun, their money on powder and lead...not mine.

I've said it before...if I just told you what I shoot in my 62, you'll say "that's dumb, you don't need to shoot that much." And you'd sort of be correct.

I don't have to shoot that much if I want to drift and file my sights. But through time and experimentation, I determined that, without touching my sights and by putting in the charge I do, they are spot on and I get a nice trajectory that lets me point and shoot to 100 yards. Do I waste powder? Perhaps. I'll argue that even if I waste half the powder I shoot, I'm still not seeing powder as my limiting factor in how much I shoot.

I sometimes think we've got "anti-magnumitis" issues at times, too. You have people who want to have the bigger, badder gun, and then you have people who, for similar "look at me" reasons, want to shoot smaller/lighter to show it can be done.

And I'll never....ever...understand why anyone cares what anyone else shoots. I shoot a 62 for a few reasons, as if I need to justify it....

1- The rifle I have is based on the rifle built by Johannes Schreit in Reading in 1761. This is a known and historical long rifle, and my rifle is built in a fashion resembling it. The original, as it sits now, is a 60, I believe. The early guns were bigger bores. I decided to do likewise, and a 62 would actually lighten the rifle a bit because it was going to need a D-weight barrel either way, so a 62 would take a little more metal out of the blank.

2- I'd hunted many years with a 50 and I wanted a 54 or bigger, just for a bit bigger ball because I prefer it.

3- It's different.

4- I can.

So, when I got my rifle, I started at 80gr of 2F. Then I worked up 10gr (by volume) and really didn't see tons of difference in groups. It does group better hotter than lighter, though, to a degree. The Hoyt barrel is slightly quicker in twist that might be expected, in hopes of a smaller charge being accurate (it's a 1:56). 80 was ok, so was 90. 100 was better in groups, and I noticed they were getting closer to POA as I worked up. I kept going.

At 120, they were smack on POA without touching the sights.

The rifle is big....2.5" wide buttplate with a 46" D-weight swamped barrel. It's not a toothpick. Recoil from that charge is not even close to difficult to absorb. It's nowhere close to a magnum bolt gun. Not even comparable. The Schreit rifle was big, and I'm 6'2, so building it to my LOP and with my preferred barrel length resulted in a pretty big gun. I don't hunt the mountains, so that's no big deal for me.

The rifle hits about 2" high at 50, and about an inch low at 100. So...point and shoot to 100. Perfect.

So I roll with the charge of 120gr of 2F for all of those reasons. But....if I just said "I shoot 120gr," I'd likely be accused of doing it to make some statement about my masculinity, hunting prowess, or whatever. It's nothing of the sort. I shoot it to get the results I wanted for regulation of my sights and trajectory along with desired accuracy.

And again...why do we care what others do?

I had an opposite effect when I began working up loads in my .54 cal GPR. I went as high as 95 grains, and although the impact vs point of aim was dead nuts on, the groups were as big as a constellation at 100 yards. I backed off the charge to 90, then 85, then 80. At 80 grains my groups tightened up considerably, but were hitting slightly lower than POA at 50 yards. I filed the front sight until I was able to get the group and POA in the same plane, and have used this powder charge since. I just filed the front sight a little more so my POI at 50 yards is now about 2 inches high, which puts me slightly low at 100. I never take shots past about 60 yards anyway, but know from experience that I can get them out to 100 if required.

I think in your case you could have done the same thing. Instead of leaving the sights alone and increasing the powder charge until they met up with POA, simple sight adjustments using a smaller charge would have resulted in the same thing. True its your prerogative to shoot more powder, and spend more money in the process, and yes its really nobody's business, but the proof is there that 120 grain loads are simply not needed to kill deer. While its been debated to infinitem, there is truly such a thing as overkill.