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Low Grouse Numbers True?

6K views 30 replies 19 participants last post by  Teddy (punchie) 
#1 ·
I'll start off by saying it's been quite a few years since I chased grouse. I was reading about the grouse population being down due to a virus, or some other phenomena. The past few days I was up in the north central part of the state deer hunting with some friends. On ever drive, we flushed grouse, and in one particular area we flushed 12 grouse between the two of us in a 1/4 mile walk. I know that the 4 I had seen definitely were not the same grouse flying and landing as when I flushed them, they went off to the right 90 degrees. Honestly, I was shocked and delighted at the number of grouse I had seen.

So my question is this, are the numbers really down, or is that in certain pockets of the state? We found grouse in the big hardwoods in the laurels, with the 12 mentioned above being found in an area that had been slash cut within the last 10 years as the sapplings were all about 1" thick or less.

Curious as to what the real grouse hunters are saying. Sad that there is no late season as I'd definitely have my English Setter up there after them!

Jay
 
#3 ·
Most likely you saw same grouse ..We had guys in our gang that saw 9 deer in day ,those 3 deer would run from 1 side of hollow to other and they would count,3,6,9 and could not wait to tell me they saw 9 deer..YES numbers are down way down....Yes during winter food source can be in 1 area and you could see many grouse and think they are like this everywhere...What you saw was grouse after cover/food in that area all bunched up usually that happens in jan/feb ..
 
#6 ·
The Scranton Times had an article today 10/13/2019 and it was on several birds that are down on population because of climate change. This may be true but the birds of prey are killing a lot of them. Then the Game Commission releases fishers that kill any thing and everything. This is also a big reason why bird populations are down. We had one grouse on our property for several years. One day I saw a hawk fly up off the ground in our woods. It had just killed the grouse and we have not seen another one here since.
 
#10 ·
Beaver County PA , Township of Brighton and South Beaver over to Chippewa into the Boroughs of Industry to Ohioville . They are gone, not seen one in about 7 years, stop hunting them about 20 some years ago. Back then you had to walk all day to find them. 25 years ago if you didn't get your limit that was on you. If you walked and could shoot you would get birds. 30 years ago was 10 15 flushes per hour, in the right spot. 35 years ago you could jump a covey and not be able to count them or which ones to shoot. But I recall all along that its a ten year low, they'll return, then it was loss of habitat, now we find out that is was west Nile. Is sad we lost that little bird, loved hearing them thunder from there spot. Drumming in the spring. They went the same as the pheasant. Just the other day I was explaining to My daughter the grouse. In fact we were trimming fence line tonight just over around from where I shot my first grouse and though I seen one running under some bittersweet but it was a bunny. Still a few of them on the farm.
 
#12 ·
My suggestion is everyone get a pheasant stamp and save the grouse for me. With almost 3 weeks vacation, including the whole week of Thanksgiving, my goal is to shoot the last 5 remaining grouse in Pa. Unless the hawks and owls beat me to them, then I'll settle for what is left.
 
#13 ·
too funny. i see grouse at my cabin, although i know they run in cycles. This year seems to be better than the last few, so i hope we are back on the upswing and that the west nile deal is behind us, i have to say that the skeeters are crazy bad down this way, and we need our precious bats back. That'll fix everything.
 
#14 ·
My Springer flushed 2 then 1 grouse on 2 different days in an area that I would call marginal grouse habitat. I have hiked this same area for 5 years and run my dog on it for 3 years and have only seen ONE grouse prior to this.
It's very little, but it is something.

Oh, it's in NW PA
 
#15 ·
Whatcha talking about Willis? Are you getting a jump on marijuana legalization? :smile_big:

Havent you seen the yearly grouse newsletter? Oops that's right, its not posted on the PGC website. But is says brood sightings are down 22% from last year, and this is a very low WNV year. It cant be grouse you're seeing, maybe extra big sparrows?
 
#16 ·
Lost: I know that you are skeptical about the declines but I am seeing it first hand in the areas that I hunt. I would imagine the Northcentral area is holding on better than other parts of the State because it has better habitat. But the issue may be headed your way. The Game Commission is finally starting to do more logging and I hope that helps.

It is not just PA where the numbers are down. I have a camp in Vermont that I bought primarily for the grouse hunting. It used to be crawling with birds. I just spent 3 days hunting up there and did not find a single bird on my 130 acres. The forest has matured in the last 15 years that I have had it but there are still good thickets that should hold birds. I also hunted public lands with good cover. I averaged 1 grouse flush for every 2.5 hours of hunting (.4 per hour). Those numbers are dreadful compared to what it used to be.

I don't know what the problem is. I think there are a variety of factors that are hurting numbers. The easiest of these to control is habitat. I hope people get serious about managing forests in a way that benefits grouse.
 
#17 ·
I’m in the woods nearly every day, hunting and trapping ,in four different counties. From the end of September till the close of beaver season on March 31st. I’ve seen 2 grouse since January 2018. One was on a state forest road in Clinton County, the other on a ridge top in Armstrong County. Here in Butler County it’s probably been over 10 years since I’ve flushed , seen or heard a grouse.
 
#18 ·
You'll get no argument from me that grouse numbers are down, but why? Most have been willing to blindly follow our biologist into thinking its the mosquito and WNV that is the major problem and if that went away numbers would soar again. And if we closed the late season, numbers would rebound. And 99% of the hunters as well as GC personnel fell into that scam. Well guess what, WNV was at a 10 year low this year and brood numbers were well below last year, the highest WNV year recorded in Pa. So throw that theory out the window. Is WNV a small contributing factor, probably is. But here are bigger factors:

1. Were at 1/3 of ESH to where we should be and that will never be recovered......never. We might get up to 10%, but that us still far below the level of 17% where the GL forester said we should be.

2. The deer herds were left at unsustainable levels for far too many years, destroying the seed bank of the valuable shrub layer grouse need. That can never be replaced.

3. Deer levels are out of control again and destroying habitat and that low level shrub layer that grouse need for food and protection and our useless commissioners wont do anything about it as deer hunters are more valued that grouse hunters and bringing back grouse numbers.

4. Logging practices - years ago everyone went in and clearcut an area, that lead to a varied habitat growing from trees to the shrub layer. Now they are into shelterwood cuts to grow specific trees. Many trees are left standing to use their shade to suppress undesirable trees; undesirable to whom? Again it can also work to suppress that shrub layer.

5. In an effort to grow desired trees they will go in, pre and/or post harvest and spray off that shrub/food source. Grouse dont eat dirt, and dont feed on buds until the snow covers up the salads they prefer. I dont care how great the stem density is, if the ground us bare, there is no food, no shelter, and no grouse.

All the above the GC can control on their own property, and they can help control deer numbers on other public lands. And if you think deer arent a major problem, visit Clear Creek SF outside of Brockway where they are fencing in a majority of their cuts to see what is growing inside vs outside.

With all the above listed problems, and the GC keying soley on WNV, i dont expect to see a rebound in the 10-12 good years i have left to chase after grouse. In fact i wouldn't be surprised if we lose the December season in the next couple years. Plans are being made for Michigan next year and the coming years until i retire when I'll spend multiple weeks out of state. And i have enough covers in Pa to keep me happy until my legs finally tell me its time to quit.

Obviously my vocal opinion has reached up high in the GC as i was only given 1 blood stick last year, and unless something came in the last week(i only get to the PO once a week) i wont be getting and blood sticks or the newsletter this year.
 
#19 ·
Bird numbers have definitely been going down hill even up here in the North. I still find my share of birds but you honestly cant turn a blind eye to the numbers being down. I used to hit coveys of 5 to ten birds at a time in the early fall every now and then and I haven't hit a covey like that in a long time. Ive been running bird dogs in northern PA for almost twenty years now and started keeping logs a few years ago and my numbers were less than impressive last year compared to past years.
 
#21 ·
All true grouse hunters are concerned with the drop in numbers and are searching for answers. Other hunters could care less other than hunting a couple days a year and will believe what they are spoon fed from the agency.

What I'm seeing in the NC & NW regions is the SF is far ahead of the GC when it comes to timbering and grouse habitat. Same goes for cooperator lands. That being said, there are some well managed GLs, but not like SF and co-op lands; it might be different in other areas of the state. Having equal accesd to all 3 managed lands, I'm only shooting 24% of my birds on GLs. With the timbering i see happening, i expect to see a gradual rise in grouse numbers for those who study maps and arent afraid to move to where there is good habitat.

What i dont expect to see is any increases on GLs, there is far too much politics within the agency from the top to the bottom, including the commissioners. And there is nothing that can be done about it. And no one will buck the system for fear of getting fired. Years ago when Bill Palmer was the grouse biologist he pushed back and took a beating, eventually retiring as soon as he had his time in. Now the commissioners have their "yes" person in that position and everyone is happy again.....except the few remaining dedicated grouse hunters.

Grouse are out there to be hunted for those willing to put in the time and travel a bit. I hunted 6 different counties last year harvesting grouse in 4 of them. And I'm watching a bunch of cuts that will reach prime in the next couple years, but most are on SF lands.
 
#26 ·
All true grouse hunters are concerned with the drop in numbers and are searching for answers. Other hunters could care less other than hunting a couple days a year and will believe what they are spoon fed from the agency.

What I'm seeing in the NC & NW regions is the SF is far ahead of the GC when it comes to timbering and grouse habitat. Same goes for cooperator lands. That being said, there are some well managed GLs, but not like SF and co-op lands; it might be different in other areas of the state. Having equal accesd to all 3 managed lands, I'm only shooting 24% of my birds on GLs. With the timbering i see happening, i expect to see a gradual rise in grouse numbers for those who study maps and arent afraid to move to where there is good habitat.

What i dont expect to see is any increases on GLs, there is far too much politics within the agency from the top to the bottom, including the commissioners. And there is nothing that can be done about it. And no one will buck the system for fear of getting fired. Years ago when Bill Palmer was the grouse biologist he pushed back and took a beating, eventually retiring as soon as he had his time in. Now the commissioners have their "yes" person in that position and everyone is happy again.....except the few remaining dedicated grouse hunters.

Grouse are out there to be hunted for those willing to put in the time and travel a bit. I hunted 6 different counties last year harvesting grouse in 4 of them. And I'm watching a bunch of cuts that will reach prime in the next couple years, but most are on SF lands.

Brother, I'm not a grouse hunter and I'm very concerned about the grouse decline. Been noticing it here in the east for the last 15 years (as cuttings and ESG have been becoming less and less). But alas, they've pinpointed the culprit...Global warming!!! Just got my Pa. Outdoor News and there on page three, an article that sites a study from the National Audubon Society that states the Grouse, along with many other species of birds, could be gone by the end of the century.

The article does go on to state that promoting and creating good habitat, (which we have much less of than in the past) can help grouse populations to the point where WNV is a wash, but the crux of the article is global warming....go figure.
 
#22 ·
I believe the decline isn’t the result of predators, over hunting, or WNV.

When I was a kid, northern Centre County looked a lot different than it does now. And the grouse were there in big numbers. There were a lot regeneration in strip mines, all which held a lot of grouse. Clear cuts and areas burnt from wildfires. The woods were younger then, now a lot of that country is a mix of older oaks, laurel and ferns.

The highest grouse numbers I ever saw in Pa. occurred in southern Clinton County 8-10 years after the massive Two Rock wildfire. For a few years, you were tripping over them. That would been about 20 years ago.
 
#25 ·
More to add to the list: arrowwood, buckthorn, cinquefoil, native honeysuckle, spicebush, chokeberry. I find witch hazel, but never new plants coming up. And there should always be strawberry, wintergreen/strawberry, and partridge berry around along with a ground raspberry(forget that name). Add in ferns and grasses. Once a cover grows out of the sapling stage you should start seeing 2nd growth maple, oak, etc popping up. But here in Pa we can see hundreds of yards thru pole and saw timber and wonder why predators pick off grouse in search of new covers.
 
#29 ·
Goes to show how stupid the NAS thinks people are and how politically motivated they are. Grouse will migrate to Vt and upstate NY for the summer? And what does that say about an outdoor publication that publishes that nonsense? Guess they aren't any smarter, or just as politically motivated.
 
#31 ·
From what I recall the wild grapes were tops on the food list for grouse I harvested. Ferns, many buds I'm thinking were mostly birch, hemlock needles, crab apples, barberries, rose hips, few bugs. little birds sure did eat a lot of different things. Cover in our area was thicker in the early 90 then the 80/s. now there are still cover for them if they were here.



Most of these animals are hunted to a low enough number that they will never recover, By hunted I mean wild hunters. Just like the one neighbor farm in the early 80's had hundreds of wild chicken. One fall they took over a hundred to the sale. You turn out chickens today an see how long they last. Just like pheasants of today, week or so there all dead or getting hunted day and night.
 
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