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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-04-2015, 03:34 PM Thread Starter
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DCNR state forest green cert

Kinda new to this topic....and have a feeling this is old news but I find it a bit contraversial\disturbing to the PGC deer herd reduction so posting some links:
1st, the announcement that the DCNR forests are doing great as told by an "independent agency" (Just out this week) http://paenvironmentdaily.blogspot.c...iew-hails.html

2cd, a five year old paper claiming the push for the PA deer reduction was really all for "green certification" for the lumber products. (paper was posted on the Allegheny county sportsman's leauge website -of which I am not a member)
http://www.acsl-pa.org/pdf/DCNR-Deer...teSeries-5.pdf

I just found it interesting that if you search the five year old doc that claims the need for deer herd reduction was just a lie that the players are still the same in the latest "forest survey" posted above from this week. The older paper claims that herd reduction was really all about the $ gained by lumber being "green certified", not the health of the herd, and the hunters were baited by bigger antlers.

SCS is still the "independent agency" that gave the DCNR the green approval stamp that makes the lumber products more valuable and now Cindy Dunn is just at the helm of the DCNR instead of the Audubon society as she was years back when she was pushing her apparent deer reduction agenda.

If you keep telling the same lie long enough it becomes the truth?

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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-04-2015, 06:23 PM
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Re: DCNR state forest green cert

Tell me what the lie is?We needed less deer because they were destroying the habitat and there's reams of evidence to support that and no facts to rebut it.We now have less deer and the habitat has improved so much in this DCNR district that they haven't had to fence a cut in over 6 years and they've taken every one of their dmap units out of dmap in district 9.
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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-04-2015, 08:09 PM
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Re: DCNR state forest green cert

I have a state forest lease cabin in bald eagle, less deer, sure you don't have 20 in one group, healthier herd, yes weights are up, racks are not all just crappers, more sucess? Not if almost every cabin is empty and you see only your tire tracks in new fallen snow on the first Saturday at 11am......

Anybody can shoot deer on the farm ground....You earn it in the mountains.......
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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-04-2015, 09:39 PM Thread Starter
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Re: DCNR state forest green cert

Quote:
Originally Posted by dce
Tell me what the lie is?We needed less deer because they were destroying the habitat and there's reams of evidence to support that and no facts to rebut it.We now have less deer and the habitat has improved so much in this DCNR district that they haven't had to fence a cut in over 6 years and they've taken every one of their dmap units out of dmap in district 9.
If there is a lie it is the herd reduction was done specifically for the health of the herd was all I was insinuationg as was looking for responses as this to make me more knowledgeable. I am just wondering if the reason may have been more for the timber production? The cert the DCNR recieved today from my quick reading allows the wood to be more valuable as it has the "green" stamp as coming from a "sustainable" forest. I have no idea how much added value, or if that is even a true statement.

I am also from SW PA, and after talking with a friend who had to sit through more presentations\tours on the topic that he wanted to do when the new management was implemented. I now how have a better understanding after a long conversation with him today of how damaged the Northern tier counties are\were.

I do remeber reading a stat that claimed the PGC "managed" thier land better than the DCNR as the PGC was more profitable per acre from timber. Mature forests support less deer than timbered land I would think. Timbering a small area as compaed to the over all land in a mature forest is going to cause a problem as that area is now a "food plot" so I can see how getting new growth going could be a problem. I would wonder because of the reason of 1.5 million acres of SGLs if the main purpose should be timber dollars or habitat, but I guess on the flip side a mature forest just supports "different" habitat.

There also seems to me to be an inequality between private and public lands with the deer population, although the sale of doe tags in the WCUs do not reflect that aspect. Don't think that can be fixed unless the management areas were reduced in size. From what I was told today that was one of Gary Alt's suggestions?

Like I said, new to this and just trying to understand and have a more educated opinion. Thanks for the info.
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-05-2015, 11:44 AM
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Re: DCNR state forest green cert

There is no lie and there is no green certification conspiracy theory.I had the original report and it clearly stated that in order to keep the certification,DCNR had to do whatever politically was necessary to change the state forest management from a paradigm of mazimum sustained yield to one of bio diversity.That applied to sthe state forests,not private property or state game lands.DCNR asked for many things including longer seasons,group hunting.baiting etc.What they got was DMAP which has been and is a good tool.At one time,DCNR had all of this posted on their website so it's never been a big secret.The truth is,many areas of the NC were decimated and the deer herd needed to be reduced greatly.As a result,the habitat is coming back and the deer are indeed bigger and healthier.By the way,the 1.5 million acres of SGL's are not certified and they're not dmap's which tosses that theory right down the toilet.Speaking of tool,the guy who wrote that nonsense is a tool and a fraud.He claims to have written the first bear and elk management plans for the PGC and he never even worked for them.
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-05-2015, 03:49 PM Thread Starter
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Re: DCNR state forest green cert

Quote:
Originally Posted by dce
There is no lie and there is no green certification conspiracy theory.I had the original report and it clearly stated that in order to keep the certification,DCNR had to do whatever politically was necessary to change the state forest management from a paradigm of mazimum sustained yield to one of bio diversity.That applied to sthe state forests,not private property or state game lands.DCNR asked for many things including longer seasons,group hunting.baiting etc.What they got was DMAP which has been and is a good tool.At one time,DCNR had all of this posted on their website so it's never been a big secret.The truth is,many areas of the NC were decimated and the deer herd needed to be reduced greatly.As a result,the habitat is coming back and the deer are indeed bigger and healthier.By the way,the 1.5 million acres of SGL's are not certified and they're not dmap's which tosses that theory right down the toilet.Speaking of tool,the guy who wrote that nonsense is a tool and a fraud.He claims to have written the first bear and elk management plans for the PGC and he never even worked for them.
From what I am seeing:
The FSC cert was brought in first (1997) with one of the reasons of obtaining the cert to be used as a tool (leverage) for deer management in the future. Deer management was out of the DCNR jurisdiction. There were no known economic benefits of PA having the FSC cert at the time, but studies have now shown consumers are willing to pay more for materials that are “green”.
http://www.rainforest-alliance.org/r...c_benefits.pdf

Once the FSC cert was in place the audit CARs were then able to be used to persuade the PGC for increased herd reduction. This was also coupled with support from other organizations (Audubon and PA Habitat Alliance) wanting ecosystem management, not herd management. I did not find any CARs for over browsing in the last few audits.
http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/cs/group...cnr_005406.pdf

Thanks for pointing out the one guy was a “tool”. You get into these papers put out by “experts” and if you start digging into the references it seems like there is so little new research at times, just one researcher regurgitating the findings of another in a way to support their opinion. I will read his works with a different lens in the future.

As I keep saying new to all this, but do enjoy knowing the “whys” of how the decisions were\are made. I get it that there were way too many deer, especially up north. I also wonder how small the deer population has to be to not need to be fenced to allow for regrowth after being timbered. Seems like a pretty big expense per acre.

I mentioned the SGLs only as I don’t see that many deer there which I find odd as they are not FSC certified or DMAP, unless it is because of over hunting or lack of feed or both.

Are the current WCUs are too large for effective “ecosystem” management? My uneducated eyes see areas of inequality in deer populations in 2C. I do wish my eyes would see a few more deer on the public lands in my area....
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-05-2015, 05:39 PM
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Re: DCNR state forest green cert

The state forests and state game lands are managed entirely different by two entirely different agencies.Had the state game lands been certified,that would be reason to buy into the conspiracy theory.

I will tell you this,the habitat is a very complicated matter and many factors can influence regeneration.Deer are undoubtedly one of the biggest factors.They can and have single handedly altered the forest composition.They eat the more preferred species first,allowing the invasive species to take over.That happened all across the northern tier and it's very hard to reverse.Once the habitat gets as poor as it is in mnay areas,it takes far fewer deer to continually impact it.That's what we're faced with today.
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-05-2015, 05:56 PM Thread Starter
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Re: DCNR state forest green cert

Quote:
Originally Posted by dce
The state forests and state game lands are managed entirely different by two entirely different agencies.Had the state game lands been certified,that would be reason to buy into the conspiracy theory.

I will tell you this,the habitat is a very complicated matter and many factors can influence regeneration.Deer are undoubtedly one of the biggest factors.They can and have single handedly altered the forest composition.They eat the more preferred species first,allowing the invasive species to take over.That happened all across the northern tier and it's very hard to reverse.Once the habitat gets as poor as it is in mnay areas,it takes far fewer deer to continually impact it.That's what we're faced with today.
Yeah, I actually read the deer management forum report last night. Wife thought I was nuts. I found it interesting, had no idea about some of the undesired plants taking over like you mention (ferns in particular to me). Glad I'm not in charge.
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-05-2015, 06:25 PM
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Re: DCNR state forest green cert

It's a complicated issue but the deer herd needed to be drastically cut.
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-12-2015, 08:13 AM
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Re: DCNR state forest green cert

very informative reading - thanks for posting it
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