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post #1 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-13-2014, 03:32 PM Thread Starter
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Upper Dublin deer management program questioned

Still relatively new here, so not sure if this is the appropriate area or not to post this. I didn't post the entire article either. Just the main parts of it

http://montgomerynews.com/articles/2014/...wmode=fullstory

Quote:
By Linda Finarelli
[email protected]

Upper Dublin commissioners may be willing to pay for a study to determine the number of deer in the township, depending on the methods used. The topic surfaced at the board’s Feb. 11 meeting in light of a discussion of the township’s deer management program, which permits bow hunting, at the board’s Feb. 4 public safety, works & services committee meeting.

Board President Ira Tackel said Tuesday night he “would be amenable” to spending an estimated $5,000 for a study, depending on the methodology. “If the herd size is 100 and we’re at 25 percent” harvested this year, that’s one thing, he said. “If it’s 1,000 … we might as well put the program to bed.”

About 10 township residents sat on one side of the board room at the Feb. 4 committee meeting, while a handful of “approved hunters” sat on the other, to listen to an analysis of the program by the police department, which oversees it.

Now in its fifth year, the program was established “out of concern for the number of deer/human conflicts,” such as cars hitting deer, damage to private property and concern over health factors like Lyme disease, Upper Dublin Patrol Commander Darren Nyce said.

There were 114 deer/vehicle accidents last year, said police Chief Terrence Thompson, noting he still thinks the program is viable and safe.

Under the program, licensed hunters who register with the township and go through a training program are permitted to hunt for deer with crossbows in six designated areas of the township from late September to the end of January. Hunting must be done from a tree stand about 15 feet off the ground, and the first kill must be a doe.

Thirty-eight approved hunters harvested 30 deer this year, including 24 doe, said Officer David Madrak, who wrote the program analysis. Twenty-two were harvested last year.

“I think that number can grow,” Madrak said. “Eventually it will put a dent” in the deer population. “Will it totally reduce the population? Absolutely not.”

Opposition to the deer management program surfaced this year after an arrow was found stuck in a parked car in the driveway of a home in the 1400 block of Crosby Drive, which, according to a police memo, “was most likely placed there by an unknown individual.”


Among safety concerns expressed are: the tree stands, which must be 50 yards from an occupied structure, are too close to property lines, rendering them unnerving for homeowners to view and unsafe; a deer shot in the woods may move onto private property to die; having hunters in the woods makes it unsafe for residents to walk in the woods or for children to play there.

Crosby Drive resident Mel Driban said he spoke with about 50 residents whose homes border the Mondauk Woods and Dublin Chase open space, and “almost without exception, they were opposed to deer hunting” in those areas, which are “too small and too close to homes for hunting with a deadly weapon.” The residents want the commissioners “to find a safe and effective way to cull the deer population,” Driban said. “Permitting strangers with deadly weapons to roam the woods and sit in trees within feet of residents’ yards … is disruptive and dangerous.”

“There is nothing to prevent a child from climbing a tree stand,” Crosby Drive resident Fred Dintino said. “A fall could be catastrophic.”

Barton Drive resident Maureen Michels said some residents are afraid to let their children play in their yards when a hunter is in the woods.

“It’s hard to understand why a walking trail, bike path and dog park are within a permitted hunting area,” she said. “It’s very risky to have all these things going on at the same time. They’re proven capable hunters, but they’re human and humans make mistakes.”

“I don’t believe this program is effective,” Tuckerstown Road resident Dr. Eric Williams said. “Bow hunting has the least success rate.”

“I’m not the stranger in the woods,” countered Fort Washington resident Jeff Bucher, a participant in the deer management program for three years. The hunters are “very sensitive about the neighbors.”

Paul Wiley, a hunter from Willow Grove, said the hunters follow safety rules and “further restrictions would make the program less effective.” He acknowledged ladder stands “are a valid concern with children who want to play,” but said, “parents need to caution children” not to climb them.

Asked by commissioners if hunting could be restricted to certain days or the setbacks from structures increased, Nyce said more restrictions would result in less participation.

“If the goal is to eliminate more deer, it would be counterproductive,” he said.

Saying he “put his faith in” the police chief’s stamp of approval for the program, Commissioner Chett Derr recommended “continuing the program closely monitored,” and suggested the police consider posting hours on the signs, with “certain hours to be considered off-limits.”

Driben said later he felt the commissioners “had made their decision already” not to discontinue the program before the meeting. “We have to regroup,” he said. “We’re not going away.”

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post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-13-2014, 04:03 PM
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Re: Upper Dublin deer management program questioned

10 protestors and 114 car accidents. Their issue is keeping the woods safe!
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post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-13-2014, 04:20 PM
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Re: Upper Dublin deer management program questioned

Doesn't surprise me, for the most part, Upper Dublin is a liberal, yuppie enclave. I'm actually surprised the program has lasted as long as it has. If it wasn't for the PD down there going to bat for the program, it probably would have been yanked already. Cmdr. Nyce was instrumental in getting the program going and instrumental in using Hunters to get it done.

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post #4 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-16-2014, 06:44 PM
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Re: Upper Dublin deer management program questioned

I hunt in such a program and found some interesting stuff in the article:

Upper Dublin commissioners may be willing to pay for a study to determine the number of deer in the township, depending on the methods used. The topic surfaced at the board’s Feb. 11 meeting in light of a discussion of the township’s deer management program, which permits bow hunting, at the board’s Feb. 4 public safety, works & services committee meeting.

Board President Ira Tackel said Tuesday night he “would be amenable” to spending an estimated $5,000 for a study, depending on the methodology. “If the herd size is 100 and we’re at 25 percent” harvested this year, that’s one thing, he said. “If it’s 1,000 … we might as well put the program to bed.”

So, what would one do as an alternative, just throw your hands up in the air and give up?

About 10 township residents sat on one side of the board room at the Feb. 4 committee meeting, while a handful of “approved hunters” sat on the other, to listen to an analysis of the program by the police department, which oversees it.

Now in its fifth year, the program was established “out of concern for the number of deer/human conflicts,” such as cars hitting deer, damage to private property and concern over health factors like Lyme disease, Upper Dublin Patrol Commander Darren Nyce said.

There were 114 deer/vehicle accidents last year, said police Chief Terrence Thompson, noting he still thinks the program is viable and safe.

Under the program, licensed hunters who register with the township and go through a training program are permitted to hunt for deer with crossbows in six designated areas of the township from late September to the end of January. Hunting must be done from a tree stand about 15 feet off the ground, and the first kill must be a doe. Thirty-eight approved hunters harvested 30 deer this year, including 24 doe, said Officer David Madrak, who wrote the program analysis. Twenty-two were harvested last year.

That's a pretty poor success rate. It sounds to me like they need more hunters or more areas opened up to hunting. The more non-hunted areas you have, the more opportunities the deer have to avoid the hunters.

“I think that number can grow,” Madrak said. “Eventually it will put a dent” in the deer population. “Will it totally reduce the population? Absolutely not.”

Not an intelligent comment. I've been charting the number of deer sightings per hour over the six years I've hunted in a similar program, and the numbers have dropped dramatically.

Opposition to the deer management program surfaced this year after an arrow was found stuck in a parked car in the driveway of a home in the 1400 block of Crosby Drive, which, according to a police memo, “was most likely placed there by an unknown individual.”

We are required to mark our arrows with a unique hunter ID number. We'd have gotten to the bottom of that incident pretty quickly. Sounds like a set-up from an anti to me. If one of the hunters in the program I hunt in did that, he or she would never hunt in the program again.

Among safety concerns expressed are: the tree stands, which must be 50 yards from an occupied structure, are too close to property lines, rendering them unnerving for homeowners to view and unsafe; a deer shot in the woods may move onto private property to die; having hunters in the woods makes it unsafe for residents to walk in the woods or for children to play there.

More fear mongering. Having hunters in the woods close by; Unnerving? Maybe. Unsafe? No. As for the possibility of a deer being shot and wandering onto someone's lawn and dying. Yep, that's a possibility. Unsafe for residents to walk in the woods or kids to play there? Really? Is the public's perception of hunters that bad? I made it a point to get to know every landowner's property I was to hunt on or near. We always became friendly and well acquainted. Also, for entrance requirements for the program I hunt in, we have to pass a game law violations check, a criminal background check, pass a NBEF bowhunting class, pass a shooting proficiency test and go though an interview the tests a person's knowledge, ethics, judgement, personal skills, attitudes, addresses what-if scenarios with anti's and others we may encounter who don't understand what we're doing. We weed out those who don't belong in the urban/suburban hunting environment.

Crosby Drive resident Mel Driban said he spoke with about 50 residents whose homes border the Mondauk Woods and Dublin Chase open space, and “almost without exception, they were opposed to deer hunting” in those areas, which are “too small and too close to homes for hunting with a deadly weapon.” The residents want the commissioners “to find a safe and effective way to cull the deer population,” Driban said. “Permitting strangers with deadly weapons to roam the woods and sit in trees within feet of residents’ yards … is disruptive and dangerous.”

We're not allowed to ground hunt or stalk deer on the ground. Being in a tree stand at least 15 feet up assures that you're always shooting down toward the ground. I wonder if this was explained.

“There is nothing to prevent a child from climbing a tree stand,” Crosby Drive resident Fred Dintino said. “A fall could be catastrophic.”

I use a climber and would never leave my stand in the woods. for the guys in our program who use lock-on stands, they must remove the bottom 4 feet of climbing sticks to prevent unauthorized use by another person, including a child. As for ladder stands being left in the woods. I think that's a bad idea.

Barton Drive resident Maureen Michels said some residents are afraid to let their children play in their yards when a hunter is in the woods.

I think more education of the residents is necessary and that the program needs to do more to increase the residents' comfort level.

“It’s hard to understand why a walking trail, bike path and dog park are within a permitted hunting area,” she said. “It’s very risky to have all these things going on at the same time. They’re proven capable hunters, but they’re human and humans make mistakes.”

We always err on the side of caution, and would NEVER even contemplate on a shot that would even come close to putting a person, pet, of property in harms way.

“I don’t believe this program is effective,” Tuckerstown Road resident Dr. Eric Williams said. “Bow hunting has the least success rate.”

I've shot 17 deer in 6 years in the program. I think that's a pretty good success rate. Bows are the least dangerous of hunting weapons.

“I’m not the stranger in the woods,” countered Fort Washington resident Jeff Bucher, a participant in the deer management program for three years. The hunters are “very sensitive about the neighbors.”

Agreed.

Paul Wiley, a hunter from Willow Grove, said the hunters follow safety rules and “further restrictions would make the program less effective.” He acknowledged ladder stands “are a valid concern with children who want to play,” but said, “parents need to caution children” not to climb them.

If ladder stands are that much of a concern, take them out of the mix. Use climbers and lock-ons with climbing sticks and remove the bottom section of sticks after each hunt.

Asked by commissioners if hunting could be restricted to certain days or the setbacks from structures increased, Nyce said more restrictions would result in less participation.

“If the goal is to eliminate more deer, it would be counterproductive,” he said.

Frankly, sometimes, the residents are their own worst enemies.

Saying he “put his faith in” the police chief’s stamp of approval for the program, Commissioner Chett Derr recommended “continuing the program closely monitored,” and suggested the police consider posting hours on the signs, with “certain hours to be considered off-limits.”

Driben said later he felt the commissioners “had made their decision already” not to discontinue the program before the meeting. “We have to regroup,” he said. “We’re not going away.”

And neither are the deer and the damage they bring if nothing is done.
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post #5 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-16-2014, 09:11 PM
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Re: Upper Dublin deer management program questioned

I also participate in a similar program. We have fought the same problems. Residents and township supervisors scared to death of adults with bows that have had to jump threw hoops of the PA bow course, proficiency testing and insurance but they are totally OK with kids riding 1500 lb horses, mountain biking and dog walking on the properties.....all of which are much more dangerous to the public than bow hunters. We also can't use ladder stands or leave stands up.
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post #6 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-16-2014, 09:46 PM
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Re: Upper Dublin deer management program questioned

Culling....good..... Hunting.......bad, there is no way your going to convince people you will do for free what they are willing to pay sharpshooters [email protected] deer to do.

Has been going on up here in the developments for the past 10 years with no end in site.
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post #7 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-17-2014, 01:02 PM
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Re: Upper Dublin deer management program questioned

I was involved with a similar program for about 7 years.The lack of common sense and reasoning still haunts me to this day.
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