Deer Can be Too Many, To Few; or Just Enough for - The HuntingPA.com Outdoor Community
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-24-2012, 09:17 AM Thread Starter
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Deer Can be Too Many, To Few; or Just Enough for

Healthy Forests

http://nrs.fs.fed.us/news/review/review-vol16.pdf

The man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere critic. ~Roosevelt
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-24-2012, 01:57 PM
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Re: Deer Can be Too Many, To Few; or Just Enough for

I see it talks about wolves and mountain lions missing in the east. We have more bears, coyotes, bobcats than we ever had. what does it matter if the deer are eaten as adults or as fawns they are still gone. This is one thing I think we miss and don't take into account in Pa.The fawn mortality rate has to be much higher than it was 15-20 years ago.Therefore it would take the herd a much longer time to recover from the high harvest rates of the hunters than it would have 15- 20 ago

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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-24-2012, 05:23 PM
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Re: Deer Can be Too Many, To Few; or Just Enough for

Any increase in fawn mortality would show up in the fall harvest.Fawns are still comprising just under 50% of the antlerless harvest.If mortality icreased,we'd be killing a smaller percentage of fawns.
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-24-2012, 06:01 PM
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Re: Deer Can be Too Many, To Few; or Just Enough for

I know thats the company line, but I dont know if I buy that completely dce. Less fawns due to predation would also very quickly mean less adult deer which would even out the percentages, especially if the increase in predation were gradual over a period of years and not all at once.
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-24-2012, 06:15 PM
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Re: Deer Can be Too Many, To Few; or Just Enough for

As for the article itself, just a few comments.

The "too many"...too few....or just right number of deer is nothing but a values based decision no matter how you look at it. And will vary depending on EXACTLY what goals you want to achieve. Max diversity, timber profits etc... Tons of deer only to consider hunter desires or at various points in between. When the too many, too few or just right are spoken of in this article, I would assume that is with maximum diversity being the extreme goal spoken of.

On another note I kinda get a kick out of seeing some folks resume's. In this instance Stouts. You often hear some say Oh, the deer management is perfect because Pennstate, forest service...dcnr etc. says so too... Then you see how folks like stout overlap every one of those agencies/organizations with strong affiliations listed. Then wonder why they hold the exact same views for the mostpart. Talk about your "mulitplier effect" when imposing values. lol.

I would imagine the lady is probably pretty influential currently in deer management issues in Pa, given those strong credentials. If Im not mistaken, I think Eveland also made mention of her.

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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-24-2012, 07:56 PM
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Re: Deer Can be Too Many, To Few; or Just Enough for

I've met her in person,sat through several of her presentations and talked with her on the phone a few times.She was one of the people that came out to evaluate the habitat where I used to live.She's not an anti-deer extremist.She simply has the experience to understand how deer impact the habitat.
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-24-2012, 07:57 PM
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Re: Deer Can be Too Many, To Few; or Just Enough for

Quote:
Originally Posted by SStafford
I know thats the company line, but I dont know if I buy that completely dce. Less fawns due to predation would also very quickly mean less adult deer which would even out the percentages, especially if the increase in predation were gradual over a period of years and not all at once.
How so?Less recruitment will mean less available to harvest in the fall,
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-24-2012, 08:56 PM
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Re: Deer Can be Too Many, To Few; or Just Enough for

aside from opinion, can anyone show proof that theres more predators/predation than 20 years ago? i know theres more predator hunters than 20 years ago, when most hunters weren't even aware there were coyotes here. coyote hunters seem to be increasing here.

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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-24-2012, 09:14 PM
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Re: Deer Can be Too Many, To Few; or Just Enough for

dce, if its been a progressive increase over time, you arent going to notice it increasing little by little, because there is little difference from one year to the next, which isnt noticeable in longer term fawn percentages within the harvest either, because each years fawns taken by predators = one less adult deer the following year. So there is not much in the way of changes percentagewise over a period of years , but there is change to overall herd size by that logic.

Even if predation were increasing, the exact level is unknown of course.

Yellodog, I dont know that anyone can prove or disprove the theory. I happen to believe it has increased somewhat. Im aware, as you probably are as well, of bear having expanding greatly from their "traditional" range in the last 20 years, and the same could be said of bobcat. I have also seen this to some extent with coyote. Having seen more in the last 5 years than I have in my first 25 years of hunting, along with all the news about them showing up in odd places they never existed previously. Not sure how the bigwoods numbers are now compared to 20 years ago, dont think there would have been as much change perhaps, since those critters were never "rare" there.

I do think that predation is more significant there now than it has been, due to greatly reduced deer numbers perhaps making predation losses more noticeable.

Just my 2 cents.
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-25-2012, 01:24 AM
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Re: Deer Can be Too Many, To Few; or Just Enough for

Not every fawn produced will survive. Fawn predation is compensatory, not additive, IMO!

I hunt deer in 2F, 5c/d. I hunt waterfowl in whatever unit they happen to be in on that day.
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