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Herd Management Question - No to Shooting Doe

8K views 39 replies 22 participants last post by  Laylow 
#1 ·
I belong to a private hunting club where the owner of the land doesn't allow members to shoot doe. It's been like this for the last 10 years. Wondering what others think about the "no harvesting doe" rule? Is this healthy for the deer heard? Property is 1,400+ acres. ln my opinion, the buck to doe ratio is way out of wack. Are there any scientific studies regarding the appropriate buck to do ratio when managing the herd. Would love the hear what others think.
 
#2 ·
Does need to be shot to properly manage the herd. If they are not shot, the property has to be overbrowsed and not providing optimum nutrition to the deer that are there. I would bet a considerable sum that if you started shooting some does, you will also start shooting bigger and healthier deer and bucks with bigger racks.
 
#4 ·
I worked for a company that managed 16,000 acres for hunting. Deer, turkey, quail, pheasant. The rule was 1 buck (8 point or better and outside the alert ears) per visit and a doe each time you went out. A 3 day stay you could shoot 6 doe hunting stands morning and evening. The management guys said they would like to see a 1 to 1 ratio. That won't happen just to many does but there were some real dandy bucks. They encouraged every hunter to shoot a doe. Your management guy might have to go back to school.
 
#5 ·
How many deer are you seeing on each outing? Many people will say their Buck to Doe ratio is out of whack, because the mature bucks don't present themselves.

Put out some trail cams over a bait pile when the season is not in, and see who makes an appearance. You might be very surprised.
 
#6 ·
If that club has not been shooting doe for at least 10 years, they have too many doe on the property. Are you seeing a browse line yet? I recommend you contact the PGC Wildlife management section by e-mail or letter and asked them their opinion.
 
#7 ·
You absolutely have to kill does to manage the herd effectively, especially in areas with low to no predators. 1,400 acres, while a good sized chunk of land, probably isn’t big enough to make too much impact as far as over browsing, deer will move off the property to the food. I used to hunt a place in NC where if you killed a buck, you had to kill two does before you could kill another buck.
 
#9 ·
There's plenty of predators on the property. Although, there's not much for food. No agriculture crops near by, but a good bit of acorns, berries and forage. This is old coal mining land, so a lot of open space with woods on both sides of open land. I do have several cameras on the property. I see lots of pics 5-8 does together and a fair amount of nice buck. Went spotting one evening during the key rut period. Saw approximately 45 deer and only 3 that I could tell were buck. In early summer, one thing I noticed is not many fawns in the goups of does. Could it be possible there's so many doe, that there's not enough buck to breed them all? With all the doe, one would think there would be a lot of fawns each year.
 
#11 ·
A lot of does get shot on my property. And every year we kill more. The guys that own the property behind me shoot does. The family that owns the property across the street shoot does. Guy the has the property on the left shoot does. The game lands down the road certainly have does shot. And yet every year the hunting is good. Make no mistake the hunting is changing, way fewer hunters now, much lighter pressure by far. More bucks seen than ever before and more it seems every year but very few killed because they aren't 3 up. We will always buy oe tags and fill them as will my neighbors I'm sure. That land owner needs to rethink his policy.
 
#12 ·
Dominate does run the bucks off.

We don't shoot many does in our valley. we have noticed now that we have a good size herd, the dominate does will run the bucks off the property in the summer. They will wander back come the rut, but they go back home when the rut is over. Had 6 cameras out this summer. From late May to mid October, we had at least 18-20 does visiting our food plots daily. We did not see a legal buck on camera till late October. Had video proof of at least 4 legal bucks left after last buck season. The mature doe's primary goal in life is to protect and provide the best food her fawns.. To do this she will harass the bucks till they leave. When the herd was smaller (2000-2010), we would see bucks and does all year round.
 
#13 ·
Dominate does run the bucks off.

We don't shoot many does in our valley. we have noticed now that we have a good size herd, the dominate does will run the bucks off the property in the summer. They will wander back come the rut, but they go back home when the rut is over. Had 6 cameras out this summer. From late May to mid October, we had at least 18-20 does visiting our food plots daily. We did not see a legal buck on camera till late October. Had video proof of at least 4 legal bucks left after last buck season. The mature doe's primary goal in life is to protect and provide the best food her fawns.. To do this she will harass the bucks till they leave. When the herd was smaller (2000-2010), we would see bucks and does all year round.
 
#16 ·
It is hard to say if it is out of whack or not. Buck to doe ratio's can't get to far out of whack as they self-correct. https://www.qdma.com/reality-doebuck-ratios/

There are ways you can get alot of population information from trail camera surveys to see what your population is actually like. Here is how you do it.

https://www.qdma.com/run-trail-camera-survey/

Not sure how people can know that the property is over-populated with deer without seeing it. Not saying it is not, but I can't say that it is. If alot of doe get killed on surround properties then it may be fine.
 
#17 ·
we have some big bick on trail cam and never saw any of them during daylight hours. every placed we pushed this year we kicked out DOES...all kinds of does. we have to shoot more does where we hunt, even the neighboring farmer said he is thinking of the red tag program this year.


that would give me two neighboring farms to hunt for Red Tag....Yaaayyyyyyy :)
 
#18 · (Edited)
I'm calling B S on the example QDMA self adjusting ratio...the reason is PI STATE PARK up here and the deer population history past before hunting and present with hunting. Quoting "The max biological ratio of 5:1...without hunting..."

*I need to add that PI State Park was an excellent example of no deer management...very, very poor habitat on an "isolated" piece of land. Yes..deer swam across the bay or headed out the entrance..but they didn't have the 360 degree "freedom". I believe the some of the pre-hunting surveys was between 150- 180 deer on the park..
 
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#19 ·
Over in Jersey the first year that doe tags were unlimited number EVERYONE was killing doe, but after a few years, not so much.

Prior to that I had herds of up to thirty deer wander by me in the county park that was open to hunting. After the change in regulations, four or five deer wandering by at one time became the norm. Haven't been over there in seven years now, so can't say what it's like today.
 
#21 ·
i think Presque isle gets 100 DMAP tags every year. i thought the DMAP tags were allotted based on tillable acreage or deer density. how does presque isle qualify for 100 tags ?


i dont think there are fifty deer on the park.
 
#23 ·
Red Tag are based on tillable acres, 1 permit for every 5 acres under cultivation. DMap is for managing the size of the herd on a property, land under cultivation as well as other types of land, that is why a management plan must be submitted with the application and approved by the PGC.
 
#22 ·
Presque Isle State Park will hold a two-day regulated deer hunt on Dec. 11 and 12 to control the deer population.

Hunters will be permitted to hunt using shotguns loaded with slug ammunition that are not semi-automatic, black-powder muzzle loaders or archery equipment for antlered and antlerless deer, the Pennsylvania Department of Conservation and Natural Resources said in a news release.

Eighty-five hunters will be allowed to hunt on each day of the event, DCNR said.

Anyone who wishes to participate must apply at the Presque Isle State Park Office at the Tom Ridge Environmental Center beginning on Nov. 12. Applications will be accepted until Dec. 10.

Applicants must present a valid Pennsylvania hunting license with an unused Erie County antlerless tag. Anyone without an antlerless tag will be able to hunt antlered deer only.

Applications will be accepted from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. on weekdays, except holidays. Calls will also be accepted at 833-7424.

Parts of Presque Isle will be closed to the public during the hunt from about 5 a.m. until 2 p.m. The public will still be able to access the western portion of the park from the entrance to the Stull Interpretive Center, DCNR said. The entire park will be accessible after 2 p.m.

Immediately prior to legal hunting time on each day, a mandatory information and safety session will be held for the participants at the Tom Ridge Environmental Center in room 112.

https://www.goerie.com/sports/20191104/deer-hunt-planned-for-presque-isle-in-december
 
#26 ·
...I will try this Tuesday to get the office to get more info for you.
Yes the place was bad..but a textbook scenario on sub-par habitat and deer overpopulation.
They also did a coyote study a handful of years ago that was "based" there...I believe they collared 4 yotes ..
 
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#29 ·
I think the owner is spot on. Field and Stream magazine a few years ago quoted 2 deer biologists from south Carolina (I think) who said that the quickest way to increase a deer herd is to stop shooting does!. It's my policy, and I wish more hunters in PA would abide by this; especially in the big woods up north. You would see deer hunting dramatically improve in this state in very short order!
 
#30 ·
It is true that the fastest way to increase a deer herd is to stop shooting does. But, that is just a small and simplistic statement instead of the complete picture of reality.

If you only want more deer for a very short period of time when you have ideal environmental conditions than by all means shooting fewer does, or even any deer, is the fastest way to get there. But, since most deer harvesting is through legal hunting methods and occur during the fall the real objective of those harvests is to reduce the deer herd before winter sets in. In most parts of the country the winter conditions are often the limiting factors that determine how many deer an area can sustain.

If you don't harvest enough deer prior to the winter then get harsh winter conditions you very well could experience more winter deer mortality, that reduces the deer numbers, to where you have even fewer deer going into the next spring than you would have had if you had harvested more deer the previous fall and had more food available for the fewer deer that were remaining after the harvest. You simply can't carry more deer than the winter environmental conditions allow and still end up with more deer. Nature just doesn't allow that to happen if man wishes for more deer.

Then you have the factor that even without winter mortality of existing deer through the winter the deer herd still has the ability and does reduce its own numbers if you carried excess deer through the winter and spring. They do that by the bred does simply not getting enough high nutritious food during the winter and spring and sending less nutrition to the fawns she is carrying. In nature if the adult isn't getting food to satisfy her own nutritional needs she uses the food to keep her own body healthy and sends less nutrition to the embryos. Thus you end up with fawns being born under weight in the spring. Underweight fawns have a very poor survival rate from both simply dying of malnutrition within days of birth and also at being able to avoid predation.

A long term research project in a penned study where there was no predation and only the amount of food available to the bred does determined that under ideal conditions when the does had all the food they wanted both winter and spring the does would still lose about 12.2% of their fawns within the first few days of life due to nutritional stress from being born under weight. Granted most of those does that lost their fawns after having all the food they wanted were younger does that were still in need of growing and thus used more of the food nutrition for their own body needs and sent less to the fawns she was carrying. But that is how nature works and nothing is going to change that fact.

The percent of surviving fawns continued to get ever lower as the amount of nutritional food was reduced to the does through the winter. By the time it was down to where the bred does were going through winter and spring with poor nutritious intake of food the fawn survival rate had declined to where the does were losing 92.9% of their fawns within the first few days of being born from just nutritional stress. That is without any fawn predation.

So the bottom line is that if you shoot fewer does you will have more deer going into the winter but by shooting fewer does you very well might actually end up with even fewer deer the next summer and fall than you would have if you had actually carried fewer deer through that previous winter. The fact is if you want more deer for the long term you need to reduce the number of deer you are trying to carry through the winter to the perfect number to match their winter and spring nutritional food supply.

Since no one can accurately predict what the available mast crop is going to be or how harsh the winter conditions will be that far in advance the professional deer managers try to get enough deer harvested in each WMU that the deer will be able to not only survive but have a high fawn recruitment following even a harsh winter. Then if we don't have winter mortality or a reduced fawn recruitment rate it just means you need to harvest even more deer the next fall to once again get back to that correct winter carrying capacity.

In perfect deer management you need to harvest the same number of deer as what you were able to recruit that year in fawn deer survival. That is why you strive for high fawn recruitment rates when you are a hunter. Higher fawn recruitment means you need to also have higher deer harvests, with perhaps even more more licenses and hunting opportunities. To have that higher fawn recruitment, and the more harvest opportunities that go with it, you need to have as good of deer habitat as possible as well as the perfect harvest to match the worst possible over winter deer numbers feeding on the existing habitat.

That is not an easy target to hit year after year but it is what they strive for. But, to have any change of hitting that perfect target it is important that hunters understand how it all REALLY works so they stop fighting the professions trying to do the right things for the best possible future of the resource and the hunters themselves.

Dick Bodenhorn
 
#32 ·
Ahhh, another no doe shooting thread. Old but nonetheless obvious. Very short sighted not to. Shoot more doe, see more bucks. We are as another poster put it, a game management tool, if we do not want to shoot does, the PGC will find those that will. Look at the sheer # of doe tags issued every year, yup use them boys.
 
#35 ·
SRA-5C+.......you poo-pooed my post referencing the information from the South Carolina wildlife biologists. These men presumably have master's degrees in wildlife biology.
What sort of wildlife degree do you have???
I rest my case!!

Sorry to the wildlife biologists from South Carolina but maybe they have a management plan in place that has guys happy to shoot doe and are not anti PGC in place. But, here in Pa our wildlife biologists asked, begged for years for people to shoot doe due to forest devistation and a herd clearly out of balance and a buck to doe ratio that was lacking in many ways. The sheer reluctance of the PA hunter to shoot doe, was taken to task by our PGC but implementing some measures that in that time seemed radical. They took the 3 day doe season and made it concurrent, also increased lengths of some seasons, archery included and also increased the numbers of doe tags one could buy. And to most hunters surprise the doe population came in check with the land carrying capacity, the forests started coming back and the buck to do ratio increased. All while implementing a larger doe kill statewide. now in the past season for 2021, we just had a great kill statewide and increased harvests with larger buck harvests. And, oh by the way the numbers of larger bodied and larger rack bucks coming out of Pa now are nothing like we have seen in the last 50 years when the no doe shooting crowds ruled the roost. So, Mr. Jumptrap, If your not seeing what is clearly working for Pa, maybe those biologist should move here and deal with the largest opening day hunter crowd in the country.. Shhot more doe, see more bucks...
 
#37 ·
When I was a lad. I hunted one time on the first day of rifle in Forest County. That was in the early 70s. The first day I saw probably 50 deer (I lost count) not one had a horn. There were a few spikes and fork horns shot in the camps around where I was staying. That was the first and last time I deer hunted in the "Mountains".
I was a paper boy at the time and I had an older gentleman on my route. He and a few others hunted Potter County for the entire two week rifle season. He shot a buck just about ever year. He showed me the box of horns he had accumulated over the years. There was I am guessing 35-40 racks in that 2'x2' box. Not one had more than three total points. I have seen pictures of the bucks that were shot in the 30's in Potter County when the deer season was reinstated. Those bucks were HUGE. Remember whitetail deer were also most completely wiped out in PA by the 1900s. The deer you see now are mostly restocked from Michigan. In the backdrop of the picture of those bucks the trees were no higher than 10' to 15' because they leveled 99.9% of the virgin forests. Look at the bucks you are seeing taken now!
They ran him out of town on a rail but Gary Alt was right. Do yourself and everyone else a favor shoot a doe instead of a little buck. A nice big fat one! The herd needs to be balanced. In the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s it was out of wack with way too many does. I have not shot a buck that did not have at least 4 on a side since the late 80s. Yes there were years I did not get a buck but we ate deer meat.
 
#39 ·
That's true. If you take a look at a group of antlerless deer its easy to pick out the larger mature ones.. A friend once told me "Look at its face. If its long like a horse your looking at a mature deer. If it has a short pug nose and jaw line its young." He was right and I haven't shot a button buck in many years. Take the time to look and you'll end up with more meat on the table.
 
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