Deer Wintering Complexes – Ozoga - The HuntingPA.com Outdoor Community
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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-04-2016, 06:10 AM Thread Starter
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Deer Wintering Complexes – Ozoga

R. S.B., have you caught Ozoga’s latest installment on Big Woods Whitetails andWinter survival ("Big Woods and Killer Winters (part 2 of 2)", Deer & Deer Hunting, Dec 2016)?

He talksof the need for a concerted effort among various agencies/commissions andinterested groups to restore “Deer Wintering Complexes”. The goal being toimprove winter survival by providing better food, cover, and protection frompredators to “increase carrying capacity” so that deer herds can be recoverfrom “the current sad status of low deer numbers across their northern range…to increase and stabilize this struggling Northern deer herd at a sociallyacceptable and more huntable level.”

He’stalking about Michigan of course, and while the methods might be slightlydifferent, the situation is not that different than PA.

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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-04-2016, 10:52 AM
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jordan 2016 archery.jpg

jordan 2016 youth.jpgGive it up grundsow.There's plenty of deer to hunt in the northern tier if you actually hunt for them.Here's my 11 year old son with his first compound buck and a doe killed three days a part on some DMPA'd property owned by a huge gas and timber company.There no deer in this area if you ask most hunters and the woods are empty after no one on the first day.Now if an 11 year old can fill three tags a year on public land,every year since he was 7,the hunting can't be all that bad.Despite a high bear,coyote and bobcat population we still find deer for him to shoot the majority of times we hunt
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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-05-2016, 04:55 PM
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Good for your son! You're mostly showing us the results of hunting private property. DMAPed.... yes, but still private land. Private property, within this subject , is largely managed differently than that of lands managed by the PGC. You can't present your photos as evidence as there being no problem in the NC. The NC is a big room!


There are forestry issues. Michigan recognizes some of these issues and Grundsow claims there is a parallel with PA....I agree with him!
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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-06-2016, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Curly Maple View Post
Good for your son! You're mostly showing us the results of hunting private property. DMAPed.... yes, but still private land. Private property, within this subject , is largely managed differently than that of lands managed by the PGC. You can't present your photos as evidence as there being no problem in the NC. The NC is a big room!


There are forestry issues. Michigan recognizes some of these issues and Grundsow claims there is a parallel with PA....I agree with him!
Thank You Curly.

While congrats are certainly deserving to the 11 year old on his hunting prowess, it is hard to understand how you can equate one persons success to the whole Northern Tier. WMU 2G by itself is over 4000 square miles.
The idea behind having a private property DMAP'ed is because there are too many deer in that area. It should be a target rich environment and hunters could reasonably expect to see some deer.

The Forestry issues facing the Northern Tier are many and we should take the time to learn from other States like Michigan.

I've spent most of my money on Waterfowling, Women and Whiskey.
The rest of my money I just wasted.
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-06-2016, 11:16 AM
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It's land that's a PGC co-op and is landlocked inside Moshannon state forest.It's no different than any other piece of public property lol.How bout elk state forest that's DMAP's.We kill deer every year there as well.Is IT dmap'd because you guys agree there's too many deer there as well?
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-06-2016, 02:59 PM
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Now and then over the past 40 years, some that live near my camp will claim the deer and turkeys are "probably all dead", whenever we have a prolonged stretch of severe winter weather. Mostly because they haven't actually seen any deer and turkeys out for a few weeks in such weather.

There are several large patches of dense pines and larches on a few ridges around there, planted back in the late 50s and early 60s by a former John Deere dealer that once owned several hundred acres in the area. He's long gone and his former holdings were split up, going to about six or eight different owners currently.

The largest area of pines is about 60 acres or better, covers the top and both sides of one ridge, but mostly on the east side. There are springs inside the pines, one of which runs down across the fields below it.

That's where the deer and turkeys gather when the winter gets really nasty, always have. Can't see the top of the field below the pines, where that spring runs into it, from the road. Guy that lives across the hollow from it, can see it from his house that sits high up the hill. No additional work needed by man to provide a place for wintering, it's already there and has been for over 50 years.

Got a hunch that deer can find such places on their own, if any exist where they live?

The guy that lives up the hill, doesn't say much. So for a long time, few others knew that he can see deer and turkeys come out from their sanctuary, scuff about in the greenery that's around the spring run and expose themselves each winter. Near's I can tell, he sometimes sees upwards of 40 deer (multiple groups) and dozens of turkeys over there in rough winters.

Having been thru those pines in buck and doe seasons years ago, winter isn't the only time critters hang in there. Lots of dead trees in spots, with apple trees growing inside those little clearings in the pines. Tough place to hunt, as you can only see a few yards ahead in some areas. Better place for watchers out in the fields, if enough guys go thru the pines to flush deer out.

Some folks' learnin' curves just look like circles...3A Camp/also hunt 4B
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-06-2016, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grundsow View Post
R. S.B., have you caught Ozoga’s latest installment on Big Woods Whitetails andWinter survival ("Big Woods and Killer Winters (part 2 of 2)", Deer & Deer Hunting, Dec 2016)?

He talksof the need for a concerted effort among various agencies/commissions andinterested groups to restore “Deer Wintering Complexes”. The goal being toimprove winter survival by providing better food, cover, and protection frompredators to “increase carrying capacity” so that deer herds can be recoverfrom “the current sad status of low deer numbers across their northern range…to increase and stabilize this struggling Northern deer herd at a sociallyacceptable and more huntable level.”

He’stalking about Michigan of course, and while the methods might be slightlydifferent, the situation is not that different than PA.
I have not seen the article. I will see if I can find copy though. Did you read part 1 as well? I will have to see if I can find both parts.

Dick Bodenhorn
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-07-2016, 06:07 AM
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Now and then over the past 40 years, some that live near my camp will claim the deer and turkeys are "probably all dead", whenever we have a prolonged stretch of severe winter weather. Mostly because they haven't actually seen any deer and turkeys out for a few weeks in such weather.

There are several large patches of dense pines and larches on a few ridges around there, planted back in the late 50s and early 60s by a former John Deere dealer that once owned several hundred acres in the area. He's long gone and his former holdings were split up, going to about six or eight different owners currently.

The largest area of pines is about 60 acres or better, covers the top and both sides of one ridge, but mostly on the east side. There are springs inside the pines, one of which runs down across the fields below it.

That's where the deer and turkeys gather when the winter gets really nasty, always have. Can't see the top of the field below the pines, where that spring runs into it, from the road. Guy that lives across the hollow from it, can see it from his house that sits high up the hill. No additional work needed by man to provide a place for wintering, it's already there and has been for over 50 years.

Got a hunch that deer can find such places on their own, if any exist where they live?

You've given an example of management action. The engaged proactive approach vs the popular sit and wait for 50 years to see what we get approach.


The PGC needs a wife....
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-07-2016, 06:32 AM Thread Starter
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Give it up grundsow.There's plenty of deer to hunt in the northern tier if you actually hunt for them.



Back to the macho hunter thing…




I’m happy for your son, but listen, I just thought R. S. B.could relate to Ozoga’s recommendations, and maybe could explain how/why hefeels they could be beneficial in NC PA. Ozoga gives the same rap as R. S. B. IfNW PA is different than the rest of the state, then so be it, and let’s make ita priority with those in charge.




No doubt some of us are having a great time in PA today, butto suggest it is common or the norm is just off the mark. No matter how people mightchange their methods, there are simply no more surplus deer available forharvest, period. Besides, why would you be against improving things overall?




No time now, but when I get a chance I will post the resultsof DMAP at Ricketts – it’s pitiful hunting.

I can't complain but sometimes I still do - Joe Walsh
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-07-2016, 09:03 AM
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Not really, Curly? Just noting that there are likely lots of "wintering complexes" already in existence, here and there. No real efforts needed to improve them if they're already there to one degree or another?

What I described was an example of one man's efforts, but he didn't have thousands of pines planted on a whim. Much of the land he acquired back then, was overgrown farmland. Very little of that ground was still being cultivated, especially the steeper parts that he cleared and planted pines on. Some had been logged off when he bought it, then planted with pines and larches because it was an eyesore.

The biggest patch where the springs are and critters tend to congregate in during harsh winters, was directly up the hill behind his house and the equipment dealership. The planting was his effort to improve what he had to look at every day, while he lived and worked there. That it eventually provided great wildlife cover, was an additional benefit that he probably never envisioned?

Other side of he valley where my camp is, has lots of hemlocks on the ridges up behind me. My adjoining neighbor's woods (about 40 acres) up in back of me is mostly hemlocks now, since he's had it timbered multiple times over the past 50 years. Some areas that were mostly hardwoods that long ago, are now grown up almost completely in hemlocks.

I have killed several deer there in bad weather, when deer get back in those thick patches of hemlocks for some shelter. The year we had a severe sleet storm on opening day of doe, was one of those times that worked out well for me.

Noticed in buck season that one large patch of thick hemlocks partially surrounded by a regenerating clear cut, had a trail beaten thru some green briar and into the hemlocks. Crawled in thru that trail in the briars and found deer bedded in there under the trees during the sleet storm. Darker'n the inside of a boot under there, got lucky and popped a doe that I could barely see, as she got up to flee. I've also still hunted above another thick area of hemlocks up in there and shot deer that were down in there below me, taking shelter.

When I could still do lots of walking, got to liking "wintering complexes" during crappy weather in deer seasons.

Played cat and mouse in the second week last year, with a dozen doe that came down out of one such hemlock patch almost every evening, into a small pasture area below the thick stuff. Wherever I set up, they'd come out in a different place and so it went for several evenings. Finally got in the right place and they didn't come out until about five minutes after legal quitting time. Why we call it "hunting". ;o)

Some folks' learnin' curves just look like circles...3A Camp/also hunt 4B

Last edited by DennyF; 11-07-2016 at 09:06 AM.
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