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post #1 of 149 (permalink) Old 09-11-2016, 02:23 PM Thread Starter
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Predators & Fawns Article

Quote:
Originally Posted by R. S. B.
There was no study nor one shred of evidence of how many predators were living on either study area at the time of the study. Therefore, you are simply assuming predator numbers were higher in the big woods study area because there was more fawn predation in that study area. That could be entirely incorrect and in fact there could have been fewer predators in the study area with the higher predation. It is very possibly, though unproven, that the only reason the predation in the big woods study area would have been entirely habitat related instead of predator density related.

Dick Bodenhorn 7/2/2015
Dick, new evidence is in:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Kosack, “Looking Closer at Predators & Fawns” PA Game News, Sept 2016
Matt Lovallo [PGC Biologist]: “We have a pretty good idea of the relative abundance of predators in the study areas. Bear are the most commonly captured predators on trail cams and we’re detecting coyotes and bobcats at relatively few sites on the landscape.”

… trail cams were far more effective on the northern study area, where image-recording rates were 75% higher for bear; 98% higher for coyotes; 9% higher for bobcats; 60% higher for fishers.
An amazing “75% higher for bear”, and an unbelievable “98% higher for coyotes”!

Still believe there are fewer predators in the area with higher predation (2G/2H)?

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post #2 of 149 (permalink) Old 09-11-2016, 05:06 PM
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Re: Predators & Fawns Article

Still doesn't tell you much. They could have had 1 pic of a coyote in one area, and 2 in the other. 100% higher. How many cameras were out at each spot. How long were they out? What were they on? Game trails, food sources, near dumpsters, near a corn field, near a travel corridor, etc? Simply saying there were more pics in one area vs another doesn't tell you much. You're still grasping here. Much more info is needed to draw valid conclusions.

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post #3 of 149 (permalink) Old 09-11-2016, 06:54 PM
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Re: Predators & Fawns Article

The higher the number of predators the more they eat. When they eat everything they move to a new area.
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post #4 of 149 (permalink) Old 09-12-2016, 01:20 AM
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Re: Predators & Fawns Article

Don't worry about the predators. We just need to improve the fawn habitat........


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post #5 of 149 (permalink) Old 09-12-2016, 08:59 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Predators & Fawns Article

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Originally Posted by Borden811
Still doesn't tell you much.
Hear ye, hear ye! Scrap the research project early, it “doesn't tell us much”…

The biologists have literally stated they have “a pretty good idea”, but it’s not good enough for Bordon? That’s so beautiful, it brings a tear to my eye.

READ about the study! Scent posts are used to attract predators, and NUMBER of pics or tracks is how abundance is measured.

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post #6 of 149 (permalink) Old 09-12-2016, 12:41 PM
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Re: Predators & Fawns Article

Trail cams record what is hanging around <span style="font-style: italic">where</span> the cams are and at the time the cams are up. Works the same for deer as it does for predators that show up on the cams.

I've had guys tell me there are "no deer" around an area, because they didn't see many on their cams. Mile or two distant, more deer are showing up on cams there and it's often relative to why deer are there: usually because that's where they were feeding at the time.

Maybe 10-12 years ago, my cousin's son had two cams up over near my camp. He complained that all he was getting on them at the time (mid to late summer), were 'yotes and raccoons.

By late September there were also plenty of deer showing up on cams in the same areas, so he quit fussing about "too many 'yotes".

Now he has about a half dozen digital cams scattered around a wide area. Past few years he hardly ever gets any 'yotes, but lots of deer and lately, some pretty impressive bucks so far this year.

Haven't heard him grumble about 'yotes in the past three or four years. And yeah, different areas produce different results.

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post #7 of 149 (permalink) Old 09-12-2016, 03:28 PM
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Re: Predators & Fawns Article

Chuck is this a case of the cart before the horse?

Seems to me the study is just about to start.

http://ecosystems.psu.edu/research/p...Forest+Blog%29

Hope the link works or someone could clean it up. Waugh!

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post #8 of 149 (permalink) Old 09-12-2016, 03:37 PM
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Re: Predators & Fawns Article

Quote:
Originally Posted by grundsow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borden811
Still doesn't tell you much.
Hear ye, hear ye! Scrap the research project early, it “doesn't tell us much”…

The biologists have literally stated they have “a pretty good idea”, but it’s not good enough for Bordon? That’s so beautiful, it brings a tear to my eye.

READ about the study! Scent posts are used to attract predators, and NUMBER of pics or tracks is how abundance is measured.
I'm very familiar with the study, I was a large part of the first fawn mortality study in pa. What I'm saying is, you posting little snippets here and there, and cherry picking quotes doesn't tell anyone much. Why not post links to the data for everyone to read, and not just the sections of quotes you pick out that fit your arguments? By the way, you spelled Borden wrong.

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post #9 of 149 (permalink) Old 09-12-2016, 09:10 PM
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Re: Predators & Fawns Article

Quote:
Originally Posted by grundsow
Quote:
Originally Posted by R. S. B.
There was no study nor one shred of evidence of how many predators were living on either study area at the time of the study. Therefore, you are simply assuming predator numbers were higher in the big woods study area because there was more fawn predation in that study area. That could be entirely incorrect and in fact there could have been fewer predators in the study area with the higher predation. It is very possibly, though unproven, that the only reason the predation in the big woods study area would have been entirely habitat related instead of predator density related.

Dick Bodenhorn 7/2/2015
Dick, new evidence is in:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Kosack, “Looking Closer at Predators & Fawns” PA Game News, Sept 2016
Matt Lovallo [PGC Biologist]: “We have a pretty good idea of the relative abundance of predators in the study areas. Bear are the most commonly captured predators on trail cams and we’re detecting coyotes and bobcats at relatively few sites on the landscape.”

… trail cams were far more effective on the northern study area, where image-recording rates were 75% higher for bear; 98% higher for coyotes; 9% higher for bobcats; 60% higher for fishers.
An amazing “75% higher for bear”, and an unbelievable “98% higher for coyotes”!

Still believe there are fewer predators in the area with higher predation (2G/2H)?
Maybe there are more predators in the northern study area, but then again maybe not. At this point the study is in its very early stages.

When I made the comment about no one knowing how many predators there were in either previous study area it was because there had been no study to determine predator densities and only predator loses.

Predator loses in any geographic area can vary greatly on any number of variables well beyond just predator numbers.

This current study is fortunately set up to look at predator densities in relation to the predation loses.

In a few more years of data collection we will probably have some answers to that question instead of just speculating as to what might be happening.

Dick Bodenhorn
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post #10 of 149 (permalink) Old 09-13-2016, 01:17 PM
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Re: Predators & Fawns Article

I think you will have a higher number of predators in areas with more prey, until they greatly reduce the prey numbers. Then the predator will look for better hunting grounds. You will still have wondering predators going thru the cleaned out areas just to check. I know when small game hunting if I see a hawk hanging out regularly in a spot, that there is probably a rabbit or two there. When you see a good looking spot and never seem to see a hawk, then that may mean its already been cleaned out.
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