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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-31-2015, 10:38 AM Thread Starter
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Young Forest Legal Challenge, RGS vs. USFS

Excerpts taken from Ruffed Grouse Society magazine, Summer 2015 [Volume 27, Issue 2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by John B. Eichinger, RGS and AWS President & CEO
The failure of National Forests in Regions 8 and 9 [includes Pennsylvania] to meet even minimum goals for [%] young forest habitats as outlined in forest plans they produced from 2004 to 2007 has contributed to substantial declines in the populations of game and nongame wildlife that depend upon these habitats. Documented declines in these habitats, and wildlife population monitoring data from the USFS, state agencies and university partners strongly suggests that numerous national forests within these regions are in violation of the viability requirement of the 1982 planning regulation with regard to the ruffed grouse, golden-winger warbler (currently under review by the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service for possible listing under the federal Endangered Species Act) and other wildlife [deer] dependent upon early successional forest habitats. This evidence also indicates a violation of an active administration directive to enhance hunting opportunities on USFS lands.

When RGS compared the minimum wildlife habitat management goals outlined in existing forest plans with actual on-the-ground accomplishments, we found convincing evidence of failure in sustaining young forest habitats.

Earlier this year, the Ruffed Grouse Society filed a Petition for Rulemaking with the USFS in Washington, D.C. Simply put, a Petition for Rulemaking is not a lawsuit but an administrative tool to compel a governmental agency to implement the laws, rules and directives it is charged to fulfill. However, if USFS fails to adequately resolve the concerns we raise in the petition, we can still take legal action.
R. S. B., would you look at that? More folks with minimum goals for % young forest, and more folks NOT reaching those goals and causing declines in game. The net result being declines in HUNTER numbers and funding for wildlife agencies. And you want to side with the methods and goals of preservationist, old-growth tree-huggers who could either care less about hunting, or worse yet would love to see a total end to all hunting, period!


Cut, cut, cut!

I can't complain but sometimes I still do - Joe Walsh
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-31-2015, 07:06 PM
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Re: Young Forest Legal Challenge, RGS vs. USFS

Not sure how this ties in with anything but I found it interesting and it had me wondering how it may tie in with logging and forestry practices.

Just last week I got in touch with PennDOT of Berks County to have them look at some hazardous leaning trees on the rural road I live on. They checked it out and found a few trees that needed immediate attention and would be able to justify immediate action. They also noted that there was a lot more potential problems that need to be addressed, but needed to get a waiver from the PGC (this is private land) because it is the long nosed bat's mating season (endangered species).

Just made me wonder if they can't cut along the roadway, I wonder what the policy is as far as internally in the stand? Not that I don't have any concern for the long nosed bat, but I just thought it sounded strange.

GOBBLE THIS!!!
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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-01-2015, 12:43 AM
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Re: Young Forest Legal Challenge, RGS vs. USFS

Quote:
Originally Posted by grundsow
Excerpts taken from Ruffed Grouse Society magazine, Summer 2015 [Volume 27, Issue 2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by John B. Eichinger, RGS and AWS President & CEO
The failure of National Forests in Regions 8 and 9 [includes Pennsylvania] to meet even minimum goals for [%] young forest habitats as outlined in forest plans they produced from 2004 to 2007 has contributed to substantial declines in the populations of game and nongame wildlife that depend upon these habitats. Documented declines in these habitats, and wildlife population monitoring data from the USFS, state agencies and university partners strongly suggests that numerous national forests within these regions are in violation of the viability requirement of the 1982 planning regulation with regard to the ruffed grouse, golden-winger warbler (currently under review by the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service for possible listing under the federal Endangered Species Act) and other wildlife [deer] dependent upon early successional forest habitats. This evidence also indicates a violation of an active administration directive to enhance hunting opportunities on USFS lands.

When RGS compared the minimum wildlife habitat management goals outlined in existing forest plans with actual on-the-ground accomplishments, we found convincing evidence of failure in sustaining young forest habitats.

Earlier this year, the Ruffed Grouse Society filed a Petition for Rulemaking with the USFS in Washington, D.C. Simply put, a Petition for Rulemaking is not a lawsuit but an administrative tool to compel a governmental agency to implement the laws, rules and directives it is charged to fulfill. However, if USFS fails to adequately resolve the concerns we raise in the petition, we can still take legal action.
R. S. B., would you look at that? More folks with minimum goals for % young forest, and more folks NOT reaching those goals and causing declines in game. The net result being declines in HUNTER numbers and funding for wildlife agencies. And you want to side with the methods and goals of preservationist, old-growth tree-huggers who could either care less about hunting, or worse yet would love to see a total end to all hunting, period!


Cut, cut, cut!


Pretty interesting stuff!
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-01-2015, 02:22 PM
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Re: Young Forest Legal Challenge, RGS vs. USFS

Third verse same as the first. I am H....... Waugh!

AR is only a pacifier.You will never grow if it's not in your genes.
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-01-2015, 02:44 PM
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Re: Young Forest Legal Challenge, RGS vs. USFS

Quote:
Originally Posted by grundsow
Excerpts taken from Ruffed Grouse Society magazine, Summer 2015 [Volume 27, Issue 2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by John B. Eichinger, RGS and AWS President & CEO
The failure of National Forests in Regions 8 and 9 [includes Pennsylvania] to meet even minimum goals for [%] young forest habitats as outlined in forest plans they produced from 2004 to 2007 has contributed to substantial declines in the populations of game and nongame wildlife that depend upon these habitats. Documented declines in these habitats, and wildlife population monitoring data from the USFS, state agencies and university partners strongly suggests that numerous national forests within these regions are in violation of the viability requirement of the 1982 planning regulation with regard to the ruffed grouse, golden-winger warbler (currently under review by the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service for possible listing under the federal Endangered Species Act) and other wildlife [deer] dependent upon early successional forest habitats. This evidence also indicates a violation of an active administration directive to enhance hunting opportunities on USFS lands.

When RGS compared the minimum wildlife habitat management goals outlined in existing forest plans with actual on-the-ground accomplishments, we found convincing evidence of failure in sustaining young forest habitats.

Earlier this year, the Ruffed Grouse Society filed a Petition for Rulemaking with the USFS in Washington, D.C. Simply put, a Petition for Rulemaking is not a lawsuit but an administrative tool to compel a governmental agency to implement the laws, rules and directives it is charged to fulfill. However, if USFS fails to adequately resolve the concerns we raise in the petition, we can still take legal action.
R. S. B., would you look at that? More folks with minimum goals for % young forest, and more folks NOT reaching those goals and causing declines in game. The net result being declines in HUNTER numbers and funding for wildlife agencies. And you want to side with the methods and goals of preservationist, old-growth tree-huggers who could either care less about hunting, or worse yet would love to see a total end to all hunting, period!


Cut, cut, cut!
Once again you are completely 100% off base with where I stand on the cutting of our forest resources. Even though I have explained it many times you continuously misrepresent my position. Might that be because you are working an agenda and have no regard for being truthful and honorable?

First of all I fully agree that the Allegheny National Forest, located within this very area of Pennsylvania, should be doing more cutting. In fact I would say a lot more cutting. I will also agree that there should be more cutting on the game lands and perhaps even some of our state forest lands. But, there is much more to the equation and decisions that must first be explained and explored than simply going out and firing up the saws.

As for the Allegheny National Forest, they once were doing a lot more cutting and probably still would be if it hadn’t been for a group of preservationists filing law suits that actually shut down all cutting on the ANF for a rather lengthy period of time that extended beyond a decade. They have since been able to get back into cutting but as a result of the past suits now have to do a lot more long range and long term environmental planning before cutting in any area.

There is little question that those law suits had a negative effect on deer and number of other wildlife populations by creating an unnatural balance of both mature hardwood and pole timber stage with a shortage of seedling sapling stands. I was one of those who went to the public meetings to speak out against those preservationist views, their law suits and the moratorium on clear-cutting, but they still found a Judge that stopped the cutting.

That lack of clear-cutting has had a pretty profound reduction in deer populations in many areas of the Allegheny National Forest. That reduction in deer numbers comes from the absolute fact that clear-cuts regenerate to seedling/sapling stands and support more deer that pole timber and mature forest can feed.

The same factors of an unnatural balance of the forest types can and do affect deer populations on many other properties, whether they are game lands, state forest lands or privately owned. But, even though cutting will result in more deer in most places it is also completely true that a clear-cut placed in the wrong location, within any of those forests, can have a negative effect on the future deer numbers of that area for not only a year or two but for decades and even centuries.

I am not in the least opposed to more cutting, in fact I argue for more cutting all the time, but I will also argue that in the northern tier and mountainous regions of not only this state but other harsh winter states as well cutting has to be well planned and in the right places or can cause more harm than good. There are areas of this state where cutting can result in the habitat being altered in a way that it will support fewer deer, instead of more deer, for many decades and even centuries into the future.

Dick Bodenhorn
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-01-2015, 03:05 PM
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Re: Young Forest Legal Challenge, RGS vs. USFS

Well said!
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-10-2015, 01:53 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Young Forest Legal Challenge, RGS vs. USFS

Sorry I haven’t responded sooner, been working some long hours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSB
Once again you are completely 100% off base with where I stand on the cutting of our forest resources. Even though I have explained it many times you continuously misrepresent my position. Might that be because you are working an agenda and have no regard for being truthful and honorable?
Again you resort to taking it to a personal level, really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSB
First of all I fully agree that the Allegheny National Forest, located within this very area of Pennsylvania, should be doing more cutting. In fact I would say a lot more cutting. I will also agree that there should be more cutting on the game lands and perhaps even some of our state forest lands. But, there is much more to the equation and decisions that must first be explained and explored than simply going out and firing up the saws.
If that truly is where you stand, then why not HELP achieve those goals instead of fighting against it and slamming individuals along the way?

And thanks too for sidestepping the chance to weigh-in on the merit of minimum annual tree harvest quotas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSB
That lack of clear-cutting has had a pretty profound reduction in deer populations in many areas of the Allegheny National Forest. That reduction in deer numbers comes from the absolute fact that clear-cuts regenerate to seedling/sapling stands and support more deer that pole timber and mature forest can feed.
FINALLY! A positive post! You should have stopped right there…

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSB
I am not in the least opposed to more cutting,
Need I remind you of this doozy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSB
Some of you people have this absolutely stupid idea that cutting is the whole answer to having better deer habitat. It is NOT!

Dick Bodenhorn, 10/16/13
BTW, have you read the latest issue of Deer & Deer Hunting magazin e (Aug 2015; Volume 39, Issue 1)?

My favorite deer biologist John Ozoga has an interesting article “No More Doe Hunting?” This guy has lived thru, participated in, and seen it all when it comes to deer management. A little teaser:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biologist John Ozoga
Deer populations in North America are declining, probably most noticeably in the Upper Great Lakes region, Northeast and Southeast. Many factors are involved, but the primary reason is steadily decreasing newborn fawn survival rates and resultant lower annual recruitment – contributing to a decrease in deer harvest rates.

In the eastern United States, predation by coyotes (especially of newborn fawns) has clearly been identified as being one of the most important reasons for reduced recruitment of deer.
PS. This site's new feature that places automatic links to words I had no intention of placing links on, well that feature is really an annoying deception. I will hereby post my links just as the URL appears.

I can't complain but sometimes I still do - Joe Walsh
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-10-2015, 12:11 PM
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Re: Young Forest Legal Challenge, RGS vs. USFS

My favorite deer biologist John Ozoga has an interesting article “No More Doe Hunting?” This guy has lived thru, participated in, and seen it all when it comes to deer management.

Most of us,including myself have also lived through it.I've seen a noticeable improvement of habitat,a better population of other game species,bigger deer and where the habitat has improved,more deer.Most of the hunters I know who have embraced the concept have also experienced the same results.I do talk to enough people who aren't happy but they spend little time scouting,hunt the same areas of poor habitat year after year and understand very little about what deer need and when they need it.
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-10-2015, 07:18 PM
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Re: Young Forest Legal Challenge, RGS vs. USFS

I wouldn't hope for much action in the next few years. Feds have been spending masses of money fighting fires.
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-31-2015, 04:01 PM
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Re: Young Forest Legal Challenge, RGS vs. USFS

Yo Chuck you were head cheerleader for herd reduction as I recall all the post of the deer browsing down 20 foot tall hemlocks and then starving to death before the marrow could turn to jam. I hope you wear a catchers cup with all the fence jumping you do. Seems sooner or later you are going to get hung up.

BTW the latest and greatest out of the NEW fawn survival study is showing a trend that follows the last fawn survival study with no noticeable changes in the predication rate. Sample size was small but still trending along the old lines. Waugh!

AR is only a pacifier.You will never grow if it's not in your genes.
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