Deer War II - The HuntingPA.com Outdoor Community
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 199 (permalink) Old 04-07-2015, 01:27 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
jimbridger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: kunkle, pa
Posts: 16,204
Back To Top
Deer War II

Is it possible to win the war when you lost all the battles? I went back and listened to the clip Grundsow posted in another thread. I could not believe what I was hearing and I am sure it went over some heads as many only heard the key points they were wanting to hear or only what someone pointed out. Some may have heard the same thing as I did but did not put it together like I did. Not saying I am right and someone else is wrong but I am asking if anyone is seeing it the way I am seeing it. I am seeing it as in the long run unified is going to get it's way because we are moving away from a science based deer management program. When I say we I am talking about our commissioners.
Sure we will keep the pretense that we still have the science based program. However we are moving away from following what the science tells us and moving back to the scratch my back and I'll scratch your back approach of good ol political game management.
In the clip the commissioners come right out and say they are going to do what they want to do with Doe allocations no matter what the science says. They even point out the built in method that was there all along. The built in system of asking for recommendations to raise, stabilize or reduce the herd and then choosing what they like or something else that goes against the science.

Well it seems the buzz phrase science based deer management was only needed to win in court. Now that the court battles have been won it is time to do as they please. Sure the more deer people will be happy because the commissioners seem to be caving in to the pressure from the local politicians who in turn are receiving the pressure from the vocal we want more deer people.

The board also made statements along the lines that it is ok to increase the deer herd as long as they keep the habitat out of the red zone which is the poor condition in the presentation.

Some may have heard this but I am asking all that have the time to listen to the clip and see what you get out of it. I am sure the guys that want more deer will like what they hear. I was thinking some guys that supported the science based management approach will not like the way things are shaping up. Unified should get a good laugh and a few I told you so tossed around.

http://www.livestream.com/pagamecomm...8-e3b15187421c

Me I just have to wonder why spend so much time, MONEY, and effort in study after study and fighting in court to just take the science and use it as a sham court defense. Waugh!

AR is only a pacifier.You will never grow if it's not in your genes.
jimbridger is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 199 (permalink) Old 04-07-2015, 09:25 AM
The Man
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,506
Back To Top
Re: Deer War II

Relax. It's still science based deer management. It just doesn't have as high degree of hatred for the whitetail deer driving it.
Curly Maple is offline  
post #3 of 199 (permalink) Old 04-07-2015, 09:35 AM
The Man
 
grundsow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Berks County, PA
Posts: 6,615
Back To Top
Re: Deer War II

bridger, the problem is PGC deer team has to work within the constraints of ďlimited dataĒ available.
i.e. as WMUís get larger, deer mngt. gets less precise across the landscape.

I see PGC Commissioners simply trying to achieve more balance within their WMUís in terms of application of mngt. The ďscienceĒ of mngt. is NOT being lost at all, itís being fitted with the limited data.

I can't complain but sometimes I still do - Joe Walsh
grundsow is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 199 (permalink) Old 04-07-2015, 12:28 PM
Part of the Community
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 185
Back To Top
Re: Deer War II

Could anyone understand what the man from Kunkle was trying to say. Geesh!
The bottom line is - with so much land now going posted and leased, and the game lands virtually out of deer, no program is going to work where one land owner does not allow access and creates a preserve for the deer, while the next has no deer, because all of the deer moved to the place where there is no hunting pressure to hide from the hunters after the first couple of hours of pressure in the early seasons.

The only way to hunt these unhuntable areas now would be to allow night hunting on private - non posted land!
The deer comes in at night, gets their bellies full. Runs back into the sanctuary before morning and stays there until the end of rifle season.
Not a real smart way to manage a deer herd!

It's this micromanagement by these uneducated slack jaw know it all kids, with money to burn and nothing better to do then to spend $100's of dollars a year on posted signs and leases.

If there is one thing I can't stand, it is a political debate about hunting and the rules!
The state makes the rules and all you can do is moan and complain.
If you don't like the rules, elect people that will represent you as a hunter and forget about all of the others that makes big campaign promises but doesn't deliver.
Trail is offline  
post #5 of 199 (permalink) Old 04-07-2015, 03:22 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
jimbridger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: kunkle, pa
Posts: 16,204
Back To Top
Re: Deer War II

Quote:
bridger, the problem is PGC deer team has to work within the constraints of ďlimited dataĒ available.
i.e. as WMUís get larger, deer mngt. gets less precise across the landscape.
1 I think you missed the point.

2 I think you are wrong. The larger WMU's were needed to get enough data. The counties were often lumped together to get just enough to be close to reliable.
Precision across any land mass is not a goal it is only a dream made up when the term "cold spots" were coined.
Like they said in the clip even the corn and hay fields become cold spots when the crop is gone.

The problem the deer team has is working towards a "defendable" management plan only to have it made less defendable when the seats on the board play politics and plug in allocations that support the political end but turn a blind eye to the scientific results of many years of data collecting and best trend anadiplosis.


Quote:
I see PGC Commissioners simply trying to achieve more balance within their WMUís in terms of application of mngt. The ďscienceĒ of mngt. is NOT being lost at all, itís being fitted with the limited data.
How could you listen to that clip and suggest the lack of data is the problem?
It is plain to anyone with an open mind that the datum is there and the trends are real but it don't taste right so we will cook up something else to use until we need to defend it in court and then we will hope everyone says the system in place is correct.
It is one thing to claim your system is the best and passes peer review. It is another to just have that system on the shelf and not use the data and recommendations the system produces.

Once again limited data is not the problem. That problem is solved by pooling areas and years to establish trends and trends are better than annual blips on the screen.

The problem is the willingness of the board at attempting to have every square inch micro managed for deer.
WMU's were made and named in an attempt to manage the wildlife within a similar land type with enough area included to provide reliable data.
If everyone wants DMA's than pony up the money and we can select every farm field by crop type and every wood lot by tree count. LOL. Micro management is not game management it is animal husbandry and even farms have cold spots or decreased productive areas. Waugh!

AR is only a pacifier.You will never grow if it's not in your genes.
jimbridger is offline  
post #6 of 199 (permalink) Old 04-07-2015, 03:23 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
jimbridger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: kunkle, pa
Posts: 16,204
Back To Top
Re: Deer War II

Quote:
It's still science based deer management.
In title only. The application is political. Waugh!

AR is only a pacifier.You will never grow if it's not in your genes.
jimbridger is offline  
post #7 of 199 (permalink) Old 04-07-2015, 03:37 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
jimbridger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: kunkle, pa
Posts: 16,204
Back To Top
Re: Deer War II

Quote:
If you don't like the rules, elect people that will represent you as a hunter and forget about all of the others that makes big campaign promises but doesn't deliver.
Yes right there is the problem. The politicians or even the voters having a say in game management.

One of these days the political power will be against hunting and the same tricks used today to get more deer will be used against us to close areas and seasons.

Keep on running with popular opinion and die when you no longer have the popular support.

The last time it was fellow sportsmen that took us to court. Who will be next. Waugh!

AR is only a pacifier.You will never grow if it's not in your genes.
jimbridger is offline  
post #8 of 199 (permalink) Old 04-07-2015, 05:25 PM
Diehard Outdoorsman
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Western pa
Posts: 3,568
Back To Top
Re: Deer War II

Larger WMU'S were not needed, it just makes it less costly and less precise.
LONZO is online now  
post #9 of 199 (permalink) Old 04-07-2015, 08:14 PM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Elk County
Posts: 13,098
Back To Top
Re: Deer War II

Iíd have to say that it sounds to me like Good Ole JimBridger is looking down the path and seeing pretty close to the same picture I see for the future.

It happens every time we get a few years with deer management headed in the right direction. The problem has always been that hunters donít understand how nature works and simply canít believe that killing more does can be what is needed to have the best possible deer numbers for the future. They then get the politicians involved, who generally know little to nothing about nature or wildlife, but could care less anyway as long as they know how to use the hunterís to gain votes for themselves. The politicians getting involved then employ a host of various political pressures, which has even sometimes included blackmail, to force the Commissioners to cave into their political demands. Of course some of the Commissioners over the years havenít needed any political pressure to do the wrong thing because they too were totally clueless about how deer management needs to fit into the realities of nature.

I guess the pendulum is swinging back toward hunters and politicians demanding that hunters harvest fewer deer so we can carry more deer through the winter to once again damage the habitat to the point it canít sustain as many deer as it once could and still should. The end result, if they are successful in their wishes, will just be a few years down the road having more and more areas that canít support as many deer as they presently have and adequately support.

I expect the swinging of the pendulum to continue to move even further away from scientific wildlife management and more to the political arena now that the Commissioners are more directly tied to the whims of the politicians if they want to keep their Commissioner seats.

Dick Bodenhorn
R. S. B. is offline  
post #10 of 199 (permalink) Old 04-07-2015, 08:46 PM
dce
Sage
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: dubois
Posts: 20,103
Back To Top
Re: Deer War II

That's the way I see it.Only thing is,there's not enough pressure up here the way it is now so the herd will rebound regardless.
dce is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The HuntingPA.com Outdoor Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome