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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-14-2014, 01:48 AM Thread Starter
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AR Pro's / Con's

I don't mean to hijack another thread but have to much to share for a reply. Sitting thru this season I did some deep thinking about AR. I had a ugly situation arise that led to this.
Pro's : My area in Pa. did not produce nice bucks prior to Ar. I will be 55 this winter and hunted this ground since I was a kid even walking with my dad prior to age to obtain license. I spent 98% of my life hunted my family ground that I now own. Prior to ar we and myself took spikes, 4 and 5 pointers mainly scrubs. I always hunted hard and gave best effort complete 2 weeks if need be. In 1990 I actually had a 12" 7 point mounted it was the biggest buck I ever took and top one in neighborhood. Im talking 8-10 sq. mile all private ground we all know one another. My neighbors wife in mid 90's took an 8 point 16" wide and everyone stopped in to see it. It was considered the brut of the area. Don't get me wrong 8 pointers was taken but around 12". For the most part we all was happy taking out small trophys everyone got along good and hunted on one another. First days it was not uncommon to see 100 doe and when that spike stepped out it was an all time high. Later in 90's close being 40 I haven't taken an 8 point yet and decided to go on a paid hunt. Me and a buddy went to an outfitter in Dooley County Ga. for a hunt where the county rule was 15" wide bit the outfitter had a rule of 16" or you paid a $500.00 fine. I thought this was fine I wasent going to pay to kill a scrub since I had them in Pa. I hunter there twice with no luck. Then Pa. came along with Ar and HRD. I was a fan of Dr. Ault thought his plan made sense. The first year I had success, I took a 16" 8 pointer and only do to AR. The reason is I passed up 2 spikes and a 4 point to take this 8 pointer at 4 pm. If it wasent for this I would of tagged out early that morning and my trophy would of been to someone else. Since than it became common to have quite a few 16" and above. 5 years ago I was able to take a 21.5" 8 point I think a trophy to any Pa. hunter. At this time I really don't care to shoot anything under 14" thinking they need another year. This is only my personal choice and don't bash anyone for taking a 6" wide 5 point. I also look at the guy who puts in his time just as hard or harder than me that would be happy with a spike. I know my dads era of hunters would be very unhappy and who am I to say they are wrong on opinion.

Cons: I had an experience last week that I lost a 30 year friendship with a neighbor over a stand on my own property. I don't care to get in to details since im the one sharing the story and making it all in my favor. However, I did nothing wrong though. I finally came to realize even after reading many topics on here that Ar is a lot to blame for this. Since AR I have seen so many attitude changes it makes me sick. I have to admit I was a part of it also. Yes I own private ground and its posted to the max. I went on to lease a section beside me to keep certain people out. It was mainly due to there slobbish acts but I still jumped on the bandwagon. I have always been an honest straight up person with the rule of you only have to tell the truth one time. Now I lie to people of what I see in early season or what trail cam pics I have. The reason is I don't want anyone asking me to hunt my ground. I see so much of this now days and I have to stand up and point at myself. My cousin's husband 10 miles down the road says his family don't even speak to one another during and short time after deer season. That's a real nice way to start the holiday season. There are now a few propertys in my area now if you would sit foot on there ground and I don't approve of treaspassing you might actually get shot vs. being told to get out.

At 5:05 this evening for the first time in my life I was glad to see rifle season end. I was successful this rifle season but had more fun in bow season not getting a shot. So know I have to look deep and ask myself is nicer bucks worth loosing a long term friendship, becoming a liar, etc.? Ive mentioned both ways of my honest experience anyone else been in this boat?
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-14-2014, 02:27 AM
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Re: AR Pro's / Con's

The first part of your story is very similar to my experiences. Even had the 12" 7pt mounted. And now too, and 8 with a 14" spread is anout minimum I want to shoot. And of course along with my brother we are very secretive about what we see.
As with you we feel we have to be to avoid having trespassers and pushy people hounding us for permission to hunt. You can only have so many people hunt 60 acres. And between us and kids there are 4 already. The issue too is this. Some people are their worst enemies. If we didn't suspect they would be trespassing and such there would not be a need to be secretive. That is if everyone respected everyone else's property or space. Unfortunately that isn't the case. I think it is more than AR I think it is more of the way society is these days. Very few places you can leave the doors unlocked or keys in the car anymore even in your driveway. It goes way deeper than AR.
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-14-2014, 02:38 AM Thread Starter
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Re: AR Pro's / Con's

Good point. I own 40 and have 30 leased. I allow very few of whom is my neighbors that allow me. The way my ground lays most of it is narrow and can not hold many hunters. the other part I own is across the road a thin strip and same way and the dang road is of course counted in as acreage. Another thing I forgot to mention is I have 2 spikes that is by far more than 1.5 year old deer. Are they breeding bad deer? I knew from many years ago we had a genetic issue. The reason why I leased a section I had some of the worst slobs hunting next to me. They would march back and forth on the property line I think just to annoy me. Than I always found 2-3 dead does smacked in the shoulder you know didn't go far to lazy to drag out. A guy owned this piece from out of town and didn't have it posted. Everyone thought it was public hunting.
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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-14-2014, 03:08 AM
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Re: AR Pro's / Con's

Well if those spikes are truly older than 1 1/2 you may need to get junior hunters to take them or save an anterless tag for late season and try to get them after there antlers drop but that is a super long shot. The genetic thing can change with time but slowly. For the longest time we would only have 8 points. Some got huge, 140+ inches but still only 8 pts. The last 2 years a decent number of 10's are showing up. Bucks at 2 1/2 are now 10's. nephew got one last year, brother one this year and another on trail cam that I think may have just survived rifle season. I hope. This after 30 years of 8's at best with an occasional 9. One 11 that have 5 brow tines so that doesn't count.
Anyway, you have to protect against the bad apples the best you can. The AR is a good thing. As I have stated elsewhere, it means more meat in be freezer too as these older bucks = more meat. Since AR my nephew, brother and I have all shot buck that weighed over 200lbs. Nothing ever came close to that before AR. I am amazed at the body size of some of these buck. Also those spikes still breed at 1 1/2 too, contrary to popular belief. You just have to hope the doe they breed get shot, the old spikes get shot, and/or their fawns get pushed away. One year it will all happen and the issue will be gone. Get a mentored youth out there to take a spike. You may have to use your buck tag for the year but hey it may be worth it.
Also, I have thought many times of setting up decoy hunters in a blind or something. Something to help keep the dishonest people a little more honest. Nothing is a good deterrence like a physical presence. We try hard during rifle to have someone always on the property.
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-14-2014, 03:11 AM
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Re: AR Pro's / Con's

Can't tell you how many countless hours we have spent on stand to be seen but are not actually hunting. Every single year. Long, sometimes all day sits knowing we are not going to be shooting anything. Pack a book or smart phone, thermos, water, and lots of snacks and dress extra warm.
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-14-2014, 12:29 PM
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Re: AR Pro's / Con's

you hit the nail on the head outofstater and you are the only one man enough to speak out how AR has effect on attitudes of hunters and landowners it has changed deer hunting forever. it is snowballing out of control more friendships will be lost families devided over the posting of property for the purpose of shooting mature big racked bucks. It's going to be very interesting to see where deer hunting in pa. goes in the next 5-10 years.
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-14-2014, 01:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: AR Pro's / Con's

It sounds like you guys have your act together. We have around 12 cameras from august till 2 weeks post flintlock. We still haven't got anything close to 140. My one neighbor is my cousin and his buddy took a 10 5 years ago very nice buck scored low 130's. It sounds like you have good genetics and we lack them. Congrats you to you.
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-14-2014, 01:08 PM
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Re: AR Pro's / Con's

I am in agreement with 8 pt spike. I don't think it is AR, but the attitude of society in general. People are just as likely to flip you the middle finger anymore than they are to lend you a hand.

I have hunted our family property all my life. We had a gentlemans agreement with the neighboring landowners and would actually post on each others land. The first buck I ever saw in the woods, I was 11, and was shot by the neighbors grandson from the exact spot I hunt today (on our property). That was 32 yrs ago, probably the biggest 6 point I have ever seen.

Today, another grandson has no problem trespassing on our property, riding his quad against the property line (while we are hunting), and generally acting the fool. But don't dare step an inch onto his property or all heck breaks loose. Over the years, I've hunted with his Mom, Dad and sister with no issues. I never posted our property until after he did and kicked us off quite obnoxiously. My brother and I were doing nothing different that day than the first day 20 yrs previous. A simple "hey, we prefer not to do this anymore," would have sufficed.

There is no common courtesy in society anymore - it is a "me first" attitude, which is the downfall of our society today.

Getting off my soapbox now.
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-14-2014, 01:18 PM
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Re: AR Pro's / Con's

Quote:
Originally Posted by cornfed23
you hit the nail on the head outofstater and you are the only one man enough to speak out how AR has effect on attitudes of hunters and landowners it has changed deer hunting forever. it is snowballing out of control more friendships will be lost families devided over the posting of property for the purpose of shooting mature big racked bucks. It's going to be very interesting to see where deer hunting in pa. goes in the next 5-10 years.
x2.
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-14-2014, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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Re: AR Pro's / Con's

Quote:
Originally Posted by cornfed23
you hit the nail on the head outofstater and you are the only one man enough to speak out how AR has effect on attitudes of hunters and landowners it has changed deer hunting forever. it is snowballing out of control more friendships will be lost families devided over the posting of property for the purpose of shooting mature big racked bucks. It's going to be very interesting to see where deer hunting in pa. goes in the next 5-10 years.
Well im a straight shooter and tell it the way I c fit. I am a landowner and I do have th concept I paid for it and my business to post it and should be respected. I respect the other persons posted ground as well. My case the way my property lays it will not safely hold many hunters and I allow my neighbors on due to they allow me on there ground. Of course except one now. Yes the attitude of hunting will not be the same. Im sure even on state ground a one time normal guy would screw his buddy over on a buck. When friendships and families are split, well each can make there own descision and live with it. I for one am old enough and hunted long enough to see this change I have mentioned. Family and good friendship means a lot to me and can not be replaced. My thread is pros and cons I might be wrong of what I posted but anyone my age must see the difference in a hunter in this era. Im just ashamed I got caught up in it myself. Hunting now out of some is not hunting its a conquest.
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