The HuntingPA.com Outdoor Community banner

Straw Purchase Law

3K views 41 replies 20 participants last post by  wingshot 
#1 · (Edited)
I am trying to figure out what makes sense about the straw purchase laws. Perhaps someone can explain it in a way that makes some sense.

The way I understand it if I win a gun, say in a raffle and that is exactly where this all came to light, but I want to give the gun to a relative instead of taking it myself the store with FFL and doing the background check has to do the check on me, the winner, and give the gun to me instead of doing the background check on the person I am giving the gun to. If they did the background check on who I am giving the gun too, even though they and I both passed the background check they and both parties involved could be charged with a straw purchase.

Yet they can do the background check on me, give me the gun and I can immediately walk outside the store and give the gun to the first person I see walking down the street. As long as I don't know they aren't allowed to have a gun there is no straw purchase law broken. They don't need to pass a background check to legally get the gun but yet a person who just had and passed a background check can't take the gun without committing a crime?

That sounds completely backwards and doesn't make any sense at in my view.

Can someone who is familiar with the straw purchase laws explain that to me?

Dick Bodenhorn
 
See less See more
#2 ·
Spirit of the law vs. Letter of the law. Applying the law against a set of facts that the law wasn't intended to address. You are walking in the woods in summer and come across a severely injured squirrel, you kill it somehow, you've broken the law but it doesn't make sense that it be illegal.

The spirit of the law is that someone else cannot initiate a purchase by having someone else perform the purchase.
 
  • Like
Reactions: flintlock hunter
#3 ·
Your having a hard time understanding it because your an honest person who isn't breaking the law or at least intending too.


If you purchase a ticket or whatever to potentially win a gun and you win then you have to be the one who gets the gun. No more no less. If you didn't want a gun you shouldn't buy tickets for them unless there is a cash option. If you want to sale the gun to a third party then you can receive the gun after the check, Then they can transfer it to the new buyer from you having both go through the check. They set it up that way because there are a LOT of people who go to bashes that cannot own guns, but they buy tickets then try and get wife, kids, uncle, friend to put it in there name (that is the reason for the law as it's written)


Also fun fact, according to the ATF you can be charged with attempting to purchase or possess a firearm if you buy tickets to win a gun knowing you cannot own a gun.
 
#4 ·
i always understood straw purchases to be made by someone who knowingly goes to the store and buys a gun under their name to purposely give the gun to someone who is not allowed to have or own one.


i see no reason why you cant take the person you want to give the gun to, to the store and tell the gunshop that this person is getting the gun. that person would then fill out the form, have the background check and be good to go...no straw purchase was done as the entire transaction was done under that persons name.


i took my son to the store, to buy him a handgun, all the paperwork was done under his name, but i paid for it...perfectly legal, not a straw purchase.


i am not a lawyer though :)
 
#6 ·
i always understood straw purchases to be made by someone who knowingly goes to the store and buys a gun under their name to purposely give the gun to someone who is not allowed to have or own one.


i see no reason why you cant take the person you want to give the gun to, to the store and tell the gunshop that this person is getting the gun. that person would then fill out the form, have the background check and be good to go...no straw purchase was done as the entire transaction was done under that persons name.


i took my son to the store, to buy him a handgun, all the paperwork was done under his name, but i paid for it...perfectly legal, not a straw purchase.


i am not a lawyer though :)
The difference is small,
you buying someone else a gun is 100% legal. Heck you can buy me a gun who pays isn't the issue.
When you buy a ticket and put your name on it your in turn saying YOU intend on getting the prize. So then when you want to put it in someone else's name it pops up red flags to any decent dealer. Like I said just do the paperwork then transfer it will only take a few extra minutes.


Most smart criminals who can't own a gun put the wife's or whoever else's name on it from jump street. You would be shocked at the amount of hunters and everyday guys we all know that can't get a gun. Go to a big gun bash 500 people or more and I bet 15% or more can't pass a background check but they still have guns from before they did whatever it was to prohibit them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bohunr
#5 ·
If you win a long gun you will have to go through the insta check before you get the gun. Once it is yours and you take it home, you may sell it or give it away and you have not broken any laws unless you knowingly gave it to someone who is not allowed to possess a firearm. It is no different than if you bought a gun and used it, got tired of it and sold it privately to a friend or here on line. It is a strawman purchase when you intentionally buy the gun specifically to put it in the hands of someone who is not allowed to have one.
 
#7 · (Edited)
I understand all of that. What doesn't make sense to me is that when both the person who won the gun and the person who would be taking possession of the gun can pass the background check why would it be considered a straw purchase. Yet, once the person who won the passes the background check and takes possession of the gun they can turn around and give it to the person they wanted to have it in the first place, even without that person passing the background check. That is legal as long as they didn't know the person they gat it to wasn't allowed to have a firearm.

Here is the example I am referring to.

My mother-in-law who has no interest in guns went with my wife and I to a fundraising banquet. They had a woman's table with all kinds of things women would be interested in winning. You bought a strip of tickets and put them in buckets for the items you wanted win. Each strip of tickets had one different colored ticket that went in for the grand prize. The grand prize was a handgun that was a pretty color and more specifically attractive to a woman's taste. There was no option other than the handgun for the grand prize ticket so of course my mother-in-law put her grand prize tickets in for it. Well she won it even though she most definitely didn't want the gun. She told my wife she could have the gun.

When we went to pick up the gun they insisted that the my mother-in-law be the one to do the background check and have the gun registered in her name. They told us that once she took position of the gun she could give it to my wife as a gift and my wife didn't have to have a background check to take possession of the gun, even though it was a handgun, since she was a family member. My mother-in-law passed the background check, as we knew she would, and took possession of the gun. But, she still didn't want the gun in her name. We ended up taking the gun to another dealer, told them my mother-in-law no longer wanted it, but didn't want it in her name while someone else owned the gun, and wanted my wife to have it. They gladly did the paperwork to transfer the gun did the background check on my wife and she then took possession of the gun. Why all the extra effort had to happen was and still is beyond me. Since both parties could pass the background check how, or why would it be considered a straw purchase if one party wants to give the gun away without taking the initial possession of it first?

That then prompted me to question other FFL dealers on the process. They all say the same thing. The person who wins the gun has to be the one to do the background check. If they can or can't pass it they can't appoint someone else to get the gun. If they can't pass it the gun goes back to the organization who was offering it. But, if they do pass the background check they can take possession of any long gun, walk outside and give it the person they wanted to have it in the first place or to anyone else walking down the street, without them passing a background check. That is perfectly legal as long as they had no knowledge that the person wasn't allowed to have a gun.

I can't see how that makes sense, and so far no one has been able to explain how it makes sense.

I fully agree that it is a straw purchase when a person buys a gun for someone who isn't legally allowed to have one. But, how can it be a straw purchase when everyone involved and taking possession of the gun can pass the background check?

Is this simply an example of laws being drafted by people who are braindead, government overreach, or something else that seems to be completely illogical. I don't get it!

Dick Bodenhorn
 
#8 ·
As drag said...according to the ATF...it is illegal (and likely a felony) to buy raffle tickets for a gun if you can't take possession of said gun... therefore IMO...the raffle ticket owner must prove they are able to take possession of the gun...and the only way to prove it is to pass the background check...if this is true...it all makes sense to me.
 
#11 ·
I agree with that.

But, in the cases that I am referring to both the winner and the person they wanted to have the gun could pass the background check. So how could that possibly viewed as a straw purchase by anyone including a government agency?

In my opinion it defies any logic to view it as a straw purchase when everyone involved could pass the background check.

Dick Bodenhorn
 
#10 ·
R.S.B. I am guessing that the organization put names with the guns won & passed a copy of this list to the dealer.
so by the statement on the federal form there is a type of straw purchase going on. a technicality for some "agents".



I understand the dealer`s position after witnessing 2 BATF checks at one shop & another check at different dealer over the years.


the 1st check I saw, the dealer had to quite firmly request the "agent" call his supervisor for a clarification on a purchase. the
"agent" had his opinion/interpretation of what occurred overturned by his supervisor & the dealer was correct.
the other 2 checks were not so argumentative but were still eye opening experiences.



some of these agents believe they are god.... after what I saw & heard, had that been myself owning the business in my younger days,
the "agent" would have woke up finding himself on the floor. just like game wardens & police, there are good agents & some that should only

be allowed to work at a desk without any interaction with the public or dealers.


the local fire company has a system where when their gun ticket goes off, the winner is handed a claim check. the number of the claim check
that corresponds to the gun is on a list. a copy of the list given to the dealer. no names are used so in your situation the gun can be given to anyone as long as they hold the claim ticket & pass the check, ergo no straw purchase. there is probably some wording in the gun laws that say this is right or wrong but the dealer only knows the claim ticket holder is the one getting the gun & all is on the up & up.


in our world what you wanted to do is okay legally (and common sense) but the dealer has to be concerned with the BATF interpretation of the situation.
 
#14 ·
I know for a fact of at least 2 instances where kids ( one 14, one under one year old ) won guns at a gun bash. Their fathers thought it would be nice for their kids to win a gun, and win a gun they did. The fathers picked up the guns at the gun store that supplied guns for the event. But the tickets were in the child’s name. I was there and I heard their names being announced.
 
#16 ·
A straw purchase is when a girl friend goes in to buy a gun for a boyfriend who she knows is not allowed to possess a gun... Both should be charged but sometimes it does not happen... Anyone who wins a gun bash must go through the background check and pass it... If you want to then give that gun to a relative and you know that relative WILL pass a background check then you can give it to them without a background check... ATF destroys all gun transaction records after a certain period of time...The laws currently have a lot of open areas and a lot of incidents happen that the local or federal prosecutors decide not to prosecute...
 
#17 ·
Some of the previous posts explain how it all works, not saying that it makes sense to us. I have come to the realization that I will never understand why government does a lot of the things it does. I would look at it as just another tax on an honest, law abiding citizen. Being there is a fee involved.
 
#20 ·
There are narrow exceptions for giving a gun to a relative or inheriting a gun. Other wise don't ever go into a gun shop and buy a gun, knowing you are giving the gun to someone else. It is not a difficult concept. As said above, The law as written does make for some contortions of common sense when applied to facts. Just don't buy a gun while intending to give it to someone else and you will be fine.
 
#21 · (Edited)
From 2014. The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday upheld the felony conviction of a former Roanoke police officer who bought a gun for his uncle, saying such stand-in purchases are illegal.

In 5-4 vote, the court backed the conviction of ex-Roanoke Officer Bruce James Abramski Jr. The court said no one can legally buy a gun from a dealer for somebody else, even someone who could lawfully make the purchase himself.

The decision resolves conflicting court rulings over the application of the Gun Control Act of 1968 to so-called straw purchases. But dissenting justices said the law doesn’t specifically outlaw what Abramski did — buying a gun for a relative who could have legally bought the gun himself — and only a “strained” interpretation of the case could see it otherwise. https://www.roanoke.com/news/politi...cle_ca46c6ba-f560-11e3-9746-001a4bcf6878.html
 
#26 ·
This is why we cant allow laws to be enacted based on someone of authority using "common sense". It evolves into anything someone wants. The background check's original purpose was to stop people who cannot have a firearm and illegal for someone to purchase it for them. Now we cant purchase a new shotgun for a kid or other relative as a Christmas/Birthday gift without the full force of someones "common sense" creating criminals where none exist!!

Given the desire of some to enact red flag laws, and this evolution of the the NICS check, why would we not believe that past performance is not an indicator of future actions by those pushing for such a law?
 
#22 ·
just go to the gun shop. pick out the gun you want the person to have and get them a gift certificate for that exact gun, or just pay for the gun and get a receipt, put it in a card, inside an envelope and "SURPRISE"


its yours, go pick it up :)


i guess the gun was technically bought for them, but they picked it up and filled out the paperwork. that cant possibly be a straw purchase.
 
#23 ·
As drag said...according to the ATF...it is illegal (and likely a felony) to buy raffle tickets for a gun if you can't take possession of said gun



Soooo many holes in that. I can't see that holding up in court.


-What if I buy a $100 ticket. It has guns, quads, and cash as prizes. Am I not allowed to purchase that ticket for a chance at the quads or cash ?
-What if I buy a $100 ticket that has cash, quads, a grand prize of a Ford F-150, BUT, has one item on the ticket that is a high-end over/under shotgun ? I've never heard of that shotgun, and had no idea it was a gun, since it
was embedded on a ticket with 50 other items of cash, quads, and a truck. Am I still in violation of the law for purchasing that ticket ?


I just have hard time seeing some of this stand up in a court of law ?
 
#24 ·
And that is what a court of law is for...no holes...if there is a choice...gun or cash...if you choose cash...no problem...if you buy a ticket for guns only...then that shows intent...if you win and try to illegally claim your prize...big problem... let's not complicate the issue with what ifs.

Let's get real...if you buy a raffle ticket with many different prizes...that would be like walking into a Walmart where guns are also sold...intent to buy a gun can't be proven.... issue would be...if you won a gun and tried to claim it.
 
#27 ·
ATF Form 4473
11a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are
acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the
firearm(s) to you. Exception: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may
proceed to question 11.b. (See Instructions for Question 11.a.)

Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, a person is
the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is purchasing the firearm for him/herself or
otherwise acquiring the firearm for him/herself. (e.g., redeeming the firearm from
pawn, retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). A person is also the
actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona
fide gift for a third party. A gift is not bona fide if another person offered or gave
the person completing this form money, service(s), or item(s) of value to acquire
the firearm for him/her, or if the other person is prohibited by law from receiving
or possessing the firearm.

Actual TRANSFEREE/buyer examples: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase
a firearm for Mr. Smith (who may or may not be prohibited). Mr. Smith gives Mr.
Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer "NO" to
question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if
Mr. Brown buys the firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a gift (with
no service or tangible thing of value provided by Mr. Black), Mr. Brown is the actual
transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer "YES" to question 11.a. However,
the transferor/seller may not transfer a firearm to any person he/she knows or has
reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 U.S.C. 922(g), (n) or (x).
EXCEPTION: If a person is picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person,
he/she is not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b.
 
#29 ·
Where the raffle is concerned. If a person is prohibited from possessing a firearm, he simply make no attempt to take the gun and sells his "win" to another person who wants the gun to keep. Had that case. Guy was prohibited, won the gun raffle (which had more than guns) I wrote up the sale of the winning ticket to a person who wanted the gun. That person then redeemed the ticket and kept the gun.
 
#35 ·
heres one...the guy in the recent shooting in Texas (i wont use his name) failed a background check, couldnt buy a gun. but somehow he got an AR style rifle...HOW ?


did he already own it, did someone buy it for him, did he steal it, or did he buy it from a classified ad that doesnt require a background check...Hmmmm
 
#37 ·
If I recall correctly, dealers must keep records ten years. When a dealer goes out of business, the BATF has a depository where such records are held. Allegedly until the years are up. I had a firearms stolen, it was intended as a gift to a son when he ws old enough. A collector's piece. . Paper work was in the box. I purchased it just 6 years earlier and the Idiots at BATF and the Virginia State police were less than helpful. I even knew the date I purchased the gun and the dealer, who had sine died. They could/would not help me. Would not even make the effort to look up the federal form, although I had the date and place and dealer's name. AND they admitted they had the paperwork in their depository., The gun showed up at a dealer in Elizabethtown and without paperwork, the PA stste police would do nothing. (I understand that part.)

It is a "registry" when they want it to be. Not when it may benefit a citizen.
 
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top